Natural Resources Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Tell me about one, please.

[Mark Cauchi]

Bruce Nuclear is one of North America's, if not the world's, biggest nuclear facilities. I think the Ontario government has announced plans to increase its capacity. There are a number of others.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Correct.

That's interesting, because I spoke with Todd Smith, the Minister of Energy, and he talked about how they're going to need more gas turbine electricity in the medium term because their nuclear is going to take a long time to build.

You have Darlington, you have Pickering and you have Bruce. The only one of those that is in expansion is Bruce. The others are replacing previous electricity generation, but not to the same degree of energy produced before. Let's call it level in terms of the nuclear power that's going to contribute to the grid in Ontario.

Tell me how we're going to produce more electricity in Canada.

[Mark Cauchi]

Sure.

The short answer to that question is it's going to have to come from a variety of sources. If I could just add—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you.

All I need is for somebody to give me a large project that's going to take 15 years to build, including the planning, and yet we're nowhere near even having the blueprints for one right now.

Let me move on, if I can, please.

We talk about the building out of the intertie here between provinces. The intertie build is going up significantly. The interties in the U.S. take eight years to plan and three years to build, on average, so it takes 11 years just for the interties, and they cost about $1.6 billion per thousand megawatts. We're going to have to spend a lot of money here on any interties.

Can anybody tell me about the line losses that happen over 1,000 kilometres of electricity distribution?

[Michael Paunescu]

It's 4% to 5%, depending on the length of the line.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Is that over 1,000 kilometres or over...?

[Michael Paunescu]

I can't say if it's 1,000 [Inaudible—Editor] the line.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

My understanding is it's progressive: The more distance you travel, the more electricity you lose. Is that correct?

[Michael Paunescu]

Yes, it is correct.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay, thank you.

I know that from Edmonton to Calgary, it's almost 8%. Tell me how much it's going to be over 1,000 kilometres.

[Michael Paunescu]

I believe 8% is really the very high end of transmission line losses. It's more like 4% to 5%.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay, thank you.

You referred to this “Powering Canada Forward” report, which mentions that clean energy is a “competitive advantage”. I think affordable energy is a competitive advantage, and clean energy is a nice-to-have. I think even the Canadian electricity association looks at this as a triangle of affordability, reliability and cleanliness, or call it sustainability. However, the most important one of those three angles is, of course, the sustainability. If you don't have a reliable electrical power grid, you don't have anything, so affordability and sustainability are going to have to be your pivot points.

Can you tell me how we're going to continue to have a reliable grid if demand continues to increase without any plans, or few plans, if you will, for more supply?

[Mark Cauchi]

I'm just going to state the obvious: Provincial system operators are actively planning for this. They run the grids in provinces, and they are actively planning this.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you.

I agree, so why is the federal government stepping on their toes with an overreach like the Canadian energy regulations? I suggest that you advise your minister that this is a gross overstep that's going to cause great problems for the delivery of power to Canadians who need reliable delivery of electricity to their homes going forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. McLean, with eight seconds to spare. Thank you.

We're now going to go to Mr. Schiefke for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here for this very important study.

I'd like to begin my line of questioning with you, Ms. Scharf, from Environment and Climate Change Canada.

How does the clean energy grid fit within Canada's climate plan? More specifically, how much of the reduction that we need to achieve to do right by future generations comes from our transition to clean electricity in Canada?

[Debbie Scharf]

Sorry. I'm from Natural Resources Canada, so I was conferring with my colleagues.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

My apologies. I guess it could be anybody from Environment and Climate Change.

[Debbie Scharf]

That's not a problem at all.

There are two aspects to how the electricity grid is going to contribute to achieving climate objectives.

The first one is going to be through the decarbonization of the sector itself, and we are very far down that path. The second is going to be as an enabling energy source to decarbonize other sectors of the economy, whether it be fuel switching to electric vehicles or to other electric heating sources, or whether it's to power industries, even oil and gas, steel, etc., and to decarbonize those industries.

There are two aspects to how it helps with the climate plan—

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

So we have to meet—

Yes, please, go ahead.

[Mark Cauchi]

If could just add, there's no path to net-zero emissions by 2050 without a clean grid. It is going to be the primary alternative to a fossil fuel-based economy. Electrification is a crucial part of the climate plan. It's foundational.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

You just answered my second question, and I appreciate that very much.

As my next question, can you share with the committee what economic opportunities come with a net-zero electricity grid, and on the flip side to that, could you also share what the consequences are if we don't move to a net-zero electricity grid?

We know that, for example, the European Union has put a price on pollution, and they've stated that they will no longer trade, at a certain point, with countries that don't have a price on pollution. What are the consequences to us of not moving to a net-zero grid, and what are the advantages?

[Mark Cauchi]

I'll answer that.

All G7 countries have now committed to net-zero electricity as part of their broader net-zero plans. It's pretty clear what's happening in the United States with the Inflation Reduction Act and the recent U.S. clean power regulations released by the U.S. administration. We've seen an explosion of renewable electricity globally, by 50% last year alone, according to the International Energy Agency. Canada needs to be part of that if it wants to remain competitive. Clean power certainly positions us well in the North American economy and the global economy.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you for that.

One small anecdote of being a member of Parliament from Quebec is I see first-hand how many industries are actually setting up in Quebec because Quebec is able to offer that low-carbon electricity, including producing the cleanest aluminum that exists in the world. Some of the battery manufacturers are setting up in Quebec because the electricity used to create those batteries is going to be some of the cleanest in the world. If we can do this across the country, those economic benefits will be felt by all Canadians.

The next question I have in my remaining time is on the investments we've made by NRCan and the investments that we've made by Environment and Climate Change Canada. Where, based on your experience over the last couple of years, are we getting the best bang for our buck? If we can include something in this report that we'll be providing to the minister, where are we getting the best return on our investment with regard to seeing that transition to a clean energy grid?