Natural Resources Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Ms. Dabrusin, we have a point of order from Mr. Patzer.

Mr. Patzer on a point of order.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I haven't had the floor yet today, so I haven't made any comments up until this point in time. It was a witness, in the first and only meeting we had on the study, who said there's been nothing done since that report. At the time, Mr. Maloney was the chair of the committee that did a report on this. That's where those comments and remarks came from.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Patzer, for your point of clarification, but I'll remind members at this time that points of order are not for debate.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

It was a clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

That's just a reminder for everybody—not just you, Mr. Patzer, but others as well—to use points of order for procedural items. It's a good reminder.

Ms. Dabrusin, I'm going back to you.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It's a great reminder. It hearkens back, actually, to why it is so important to hear from witnesses and then to ask them follow-up questions. After people from one of the parties ask questions, we have several rounds, as you know, Mr. Chair, because you are the person who helps us keep organized on all of that. We go through several rounds of questions. That means maybe one person from one party has six minutes or five minutes—I can't remember if it's two and a half minutes—depending on the different ways we do these things as we go around. That gives us an opportunity to test what was said and to maybe dive deeper. Unfortunately, we didn't have that opportunity, because our panel was cut short. We didn't get the opportunity to ask any further questions to build on that.

That's too bad. I would have wanted more clarity, particularly in light of what we've done over the past several years. I would say that budget 2023 in particular had a massive investment and policy direction on electricity. When we're asked what we have done on electricity, you can look at budget 2023. A lot happened in there.

The Premier of the Northwest Territories was talking about budget 2023 and said:

Building a clean economy is another area of focus in the 2023 federal budget. The Northwest Territories is a jurisdiction with great energy and critical mineral potential but we have a small population and limited financial resources. We can't address our infrastructure challenges alone, and the Government of Canada is a key partner in this journey. Budget 2023 specifically references the ability to support clean electricity projects across the north including the Taltson Hydro Expansion Project.

There you go. That's a regional example of what we're doing when it comes to clean electricity and what has happened in even the past few years.

We can look at the Minister of Finance for the Government of Ontario:

The Government of Canada’s 2023 budget provides significant support responding to the U.S. Inflation Reduction Act with investment tax credits in clean electricity, including small modular reactors, and clean technology manufacturing and extraction of critical minerals. We also welcome the federal government’s investment in its Strategic Innovation Fund to support the development and application for clean technologies.

That's an interesting tie-in, because we started off with a study talking about our response to the Inflation Reduction Act. That's something we have worked on here. When we look at what the Minister of Finance for the Government of Ontario said, specifically there was a reference to our investment tax credits in clean electricity. That's some of what the Government of Canada is doing when it's talking about electricity.

Let's go to Alberta. Gil McGowan, president of the Alberta Federation of Labour, said, “Alberta unions have been urging the federal government to seize the opportunities associated with the unfolding paradigm shift in the global economy. And we urged them to keep up with the incentives in the American Inflation Reduction Act. Today, they delivered.” That's quite the shout-out. It refers to the global economy, which is something I talked about when I referred to the International Energy Agency's report. It also talks about how unions responded and saw that we were stepping up and doing the work they wanted to see in that area.

We could have heard more from Electricity Canada, and it's deeply unfortunate that we weren't able to. However, in response to budget 2023, they said, “#Budget2023 makes transformative investments in the affordability of Canada’s electricity system. The new Clean Electricity Investment Tax Credit will help Canada’s electricity sector build the clean, affordable, & reliable grid that we need.”

I would have liked to ask about that. When the question about what the federal government has done was asked, Electricity Canada said that we were making “transformative investments in the affordability of Canada's electricity system”. That's what we have done. That's what we have been doing. That is what our focus has been, and it has been developed by listening to stakeholders, people working in the industry and unions working in the industry. We have developed this groundwork, and that is a good example of the type of work we have been doing.

However, I didn't get a chance to ask about any that. We didn't get to follow up on it because the study was cut short. That's why the amendment being proposed by the Conservatives is so troublesome. It just cuts us short, with no ability to follow up on some of these points and see what the next steps are, what other planning needs to be done, where we go from here and how to make sure we set this all in, with our voices—the people at this table—making recommendations as to next steps.

We talked about, as I have been mentioning, the emissions piece. I have been focused a lot more on the affordability piece, but this is also about the environment, as we're talking about electricity and our electrical grid. What did the David Suzuki Foundation have to say about it?

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

They're very credible.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I hear Mr. Patzer questioning their credibility. I was asking what they say about this because I believe they're a strong voice when we're talking about the environment.

What did the David Suzuki Foundation say? I will tell you. They said, “Historic investments in clean electricity in the 2023 budget could make Canada a global leader in the clean economy. But there's still work to do”. We need to keep on working. Just to paraphrase, they said we need to ensure that effective policies are in place to address the climate crisis.

Historic investments could make us a global leader, but there's more work to do. Let's talk about what more work we need to do. Let's make sure that we bring witnesses forward and get to know more about what we need to do. Unfortunately, if we cut this study short, we won't get to ask those questions. We won't get to hear that expertise. We won't get to make recommendations.

It seems so simple to me when I think about it. We just have to drop this amendment, adopt the motion and talk about some amendments and how we make sure that community voices, for example, are included. Then we can move on. We can hear from all the people we want to hear from on clean electricity, and then we can move on. Unfortunately, for some reason, that's being put to the wayside with this amendment.

I think we should also talk about—because I have talked about nuclear as we have had these conversations—what the Canadian Nuclear Association had to say about budget 2023. Again, I'm raising this because a question was raised. I wasn't able to follow up and ask any more questions of the panel, but—

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Ms. Dabrusin, we have a point of order.

Mr. Patzer, go ahead.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I think my colleague would find this quite fascinating. Mr. Suzuki is on record as saying that the Prime Minister is an “out-and-out liar” who doesn't deserve another chance.

I just wanted to put that on the record so that when she references the David Suzuki Foundation, she knows who she's talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Patzer, you're on the speaking list. The perfect time to provide those remarks and others is when you have the floor. A point of order is for procedural items. I just wanted to remind you of that.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

It's about relevance.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Ms. Dabrusin, the floor goes back to you.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I wait with bated breath to see environmental organizations clamouring to give the Conservatives any endorsements, but I appreciate that input from Mr. Patzer. Maybe it's worth having a good conversation about how we can make sure to have strong environmental policies. I'd be happy to talk with him about the importance of certainty in the market and carbon pricing, if he wants, at another moment. Right now, though, we're talking about clean electricity, and I'm going to stay focused on the study, because it is an important study we have in front of us. It's a study I would like to see us go ahead with.

A question was put about what the Canadian government has done when it comes to electricity and any other piece that has come into all of this is. What I was trying to get to was whether we've had the chance to ask the witnesses about that. What have they seen? What did they like? What would they like to see more of? Have we had that chance? The answer is no, and we won't have that chance if this amendment goes forward.

That's why I am going to keep pushing for this and really encourage members opposite to think about that. What are the kinds of questions we would love to ask of these witnesses if we get to call back these panels? Don't we all think that's an important thing for us to be thinking about?

I have had the opportunity to meet with the Canadian Nuclear Association and share our firm commitment to nuclear as part of the energy mix we need as we move to a net-zero grid. They said:

The Canadian nuclear industry is encouraged by the Government’s commitment to nuclear playing an increasingly significant role in the country’s energy mix. While additional steps must be taken to ensure that all clean energy technologies receive equal and fair treatment, today’s budget is a significant step to ensuring that Canada remain a global leader in the advancement of this critically important clean energy technology.

We're talking about nuclear, and I was talking about the global context with the International Energy Agency as well. It's important to point out that Canada has a part to play in supporting our allies and like-minded countries when they're looking at how they get these clean, affordable forms of energy. How can we support them?

We have quite the deal set up with Romania, which is not only creating jobs for Canadians in the nuclear field, but also helping to support Romania in building out more nuclear capacity. That helps keep them away from any reliance on Russian oil and gas. It allows them to help support their neighbours.

It's really important, then, when we're talking about what we're doing with electricity in our own grid, to recognize that there is an expertise we've developed here in Canada that's sought after by other countries. This is a tribute to Canadian workers, expertise and know-how. I just wanted to point out that piece too.

Let's look at the executive director of Clean Energy Canada and talk about what our competitive advantages are. As I just mentioned, there's the investing we did with Romania and other examples like that, but there's also our electrical capacity here in Canada. Budget 2023 was foundational for clean electricity investments. It was a foundational budget.

The executive director of Clean Energy Canada said:

Budget 2023 is a carefully considered hand. While the transition to clean energy is a nation-building project that won’t be complete in one fell swoop, Tuesday’s budget—

That was budget 2023.

—builds on Canada’s pre-existing climate measures while injecting capital into a clean industrial strategy, helping secure our nation’s many competitive advantages.

To pick up on a point in there, it's not going to be complete in one fell swoop. What I've been trying to drive home in so many ways is that many steps and much planning will be needed by industry, and predictability is going to be needed by government, by unions and by colleges and universities. There will have to be thinking about what we are looking for in the growth of our electrical grid and what we will need to do.

It's not going to be done in one fell swoop, but with respect to budget 2023, the question came up. I wasn't able to follow up on it to get another answer or to put these questions to witnesses. That's something I would have wanted to do. I didn't get that chance. I hope I will before we're done this sitting, before we get to the end of June.

If I get the chance, if this amendment doesn't go forward, I will be asking about that. It can't be done in one fell swoop, but how do the investments in budget 2023 translate into the needs, into the capacity? How do they help us get to the clean grid? Clearly it's a monumental task for our country. I was really interested in learning more about that piece.

We're still talking about budget 2023,and it was really foundational for clean electricity. As the president and CEO of the International Institute for Sustainable Development said:

The funding commitments in this budget for clean electricity and fresh water are unprecedented. Taken together with support for climate adaptation, this puts Canada on strong footing in the global race to net-zero while protecting the health of its people and the planet for generations to come

It would have been good to ask witnesses about that as well. The budget commitments put Canada on a strong footing. What does that look like in terms of the next steps? I hope we will get to ask more questions about that.

I mentioned the importance of unions. I'm really surprised...given Mr. Angus's deep interest in sustainable jobs and making sure we have unions and labour—the voices of workers—at the table. I think this study on clean electricity would give us a chance to hear more from our unions about what they need from workers and what they need to see as we move forward.

However, let's talk about budget 2023 again, because there was also the question of what we have done on electricity. The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers also made a statement about budget 2023. They said:

The IBEW’s 70,000 members in Canada strongly support the Government of Canada’s 2023 Federal Budget which delivers the tools to tackle climate change and create well-paying, high-quality union jobs in Canada that can support Canadian workers and their families

That's quite the statement. When I hear that, I hear 70,000 members. That's a lot of people.

They're talking about how the 2023 budget, which had such an important investment in electricity, was delivering the tools not only to tackle climate change but also to create well-paying, high-quality union jobs in Canada to support Canadian workers and their families. We're talking about affordability, making sure we have a strong economy, and the future of our country. Those are all things we should be looking towards. Fighting climate change and making sure Canadians have well-paying, quality jobs to support their families build strong communities. When I have a chance to bring an amendment to the motion brought by Mr. Angus, I'll want to make sure those community voices are included in the study, because I think it's so important we do that. I think we need to take one peek more at that piece.

We have different perspectives, as I said, in different parts of the country. The president of the Business Council of Alberta was also able to comment on budget 2023. He said:

This budget takes some important steps toward unlocking the investments needed for Canada to meet its environmental and growth ambitions. These steps include not just investment incentives in areas like hydrogen and carbon capture (CCUS), but also positive early signals on important issues like accelerating regulatory processes and establishing contracts for differences.

By the way, “contracts for differences” are about carbon pricing, in case that needs some explanation. That's about making sure there's certainty in carbon pricing for industry when they're looking at how to move forward.

What I'm hearing from the president of the business council when I read this is that budget 2023, from this federal government, was supporting the environment. I've underlined a few times the importance of the environment and emissions when we're talking about electricity and our growth ambitions. When I think about the next generation, I'm thinking about how we make sure we support growth possibilities and job possibilities. How do we make sure we have a strong economy for the future?

The electrical grid is going to play an important role in that. It's literally the backbone to everything we do. We heard Mr. Schiefke talk about what was happening in his community of Vaudreuil—Soulanges to make sure there's a strong, reliable and affordable grid. That's what people in his community and all of our communities are asking for. That's an important piece.

I believe there was also a question about studies that were previously done on interties. What's happened? What's new? Well, I'm very happy that I get to make another comment about budget 2023. Again, budget 2023, put forward by our Liberal government, was foundational on electricity and clean electricity.

The Nukik Corporation said:

Federal Budget 2023 establishes an important pathway for major clean inter-tie transmission projects through, for example, the recapitalization funding for the Smart Renewables and Electrification Pathways Program to support critical regional priorities and Indigenous-led projects, and add transmission projects to the program's eligibility.

I'm going to talk a bit more about the SREP program, as it's called for short. The smart renewables and electrification pathways program is a bit of a mouthful. It has been such a foundational and important program. I hear about it all the time, actually, because of all the different little projects it supports right across our country that help build the building blocks we need for clean electricity. I wanted to highlight that because it's an important perspective that goes to the intertie question that was asked.

Another piece on budget 2023 comes from Andrew Weaver, the former leader of the B.C. Green Party. He said he was thrilled with the Liberal Party's budget, that it was “visionary & reflects the new reality that prosperity is local & grounded in cleantech, clean power, innovation and creativity. Building on our strategic strengths and the integrated North American market I give it a solid A!” I always like getting an A. It's like a gold star, and there we go; we got that.

This is someone who cares a lot about the environment. I've brought some perspectives from the Northwest Territories, from Alberta and from Ontario, and this is a perspective on budget 2023 from British Columbia, so that's right across our country, coast to coast to coast. We'll get a few chances to talk about some other parts of our country as we go forward.

People saw budget 2023 as a very exciting and important investment and building block for electricity. Again, if only we could ask questions of all these people as part of the study. Imagine all the people I have mentioned so far. If only we could hear from them and ask them what they see now. They saw the building blocks we put in budget 2023. They've seen the programs. What now? What do we do now to support those good-paying jobs, make sure we reduce emissions across our country and do what we need to do? On clean electricity, what are the opportunities they see for those jobs? What are the opportunities they see for attracting investment to our country? Unfortunately, I can't get to that right now, but I'll have an opportunity, I'm sure, to talk about how so many industries from other countries, when they're making a decision about where to invest, consider that a clean electrical grid, a net-zero electrical grid, is an important part of that.

Really, this is about the environment. It's about growth. It's about jobs. It's about affordability. As I said, even the International Energy Agency supports this. These are important things for us to be thinking about, planning for, asking questions about and making recommendations on. We can't do any of that if this amendment goes forward. We won't get a chance to ask all those questions. We won't get a chance to put forward witnesses to share these thoughts. It's really too bad.

Let me also look at what some other people have said about budget 2023. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I'm so excited when I read these endorsements about our budget. This input makes me very excited about how foundational it was for clean electricity.

The question of what this Liberal government has done for electricity has come up, so let me keep reading, because more people have had some great statements.

Let's go with The Pembina Institute. The Pembina Institute said this about the federal Liberal budget of 2023:

This budget makes Canada competitive with the U.S.'s Inflation Reduction Act and Europe's Green Deal Industrial Plan, in terms of investment in climate. It ensures Canadian workers can benefit from the significant economic opportunities presented by clean electricity, energy efficient building retrofits, zero-emission vehicle manufacturing, and the production and refining of critical minerals.

It's another organization commenting about how budget 2023 supported Canadian workers, provided economic opportunities and was an investment in climate. These are the kinds of things I want to talk with my constituents about when I go home. What would I want to say? It's something of importance we've done to leave behind. These are the kinds of things I want to be talking about.

I want to be talking about how, yes, I took action on climate. Yes, I helped create good-paying jobs. Yes, I was part of a government that made sure we were growing the economy and doing all of these important things. These are the kinds of thing that, if this amendment had not been put forward, I would be asking more about.

On another piece, I think you had heard me talking earlier about the millwright program and that tremendous group of women millwrights who graduated and were getting jobs with Ontario Power Generation to work on the Darlington refurbishment. What did Ontario Power Generation have to say about federal Liberal budget 2023 and its investments and planning for the electricity of the future for our country? They said this:

OPG welcomes and applauds the Federal Government's support for clean energy initiatives, including for nuclear and hydroelectric projects. This is a tremendous step towards achieving our net-zero goals.

I've talked a few times now about the importance of nuclear in Ontario. It's not right for every part of our country, but there are parts of our country where it forms an important part of what a clean electrical grid needs to be. I would like to have been able to ask more questions about that. We just had a little snippet. It was gone. If we'd had the opportunity, I would have asked more about what that mix looks like in different provinces.

That statement by Ontario Power Generation also refers to hydroelectric. If you're from a province like Quebec or British Columbia, you have opportunities for hydroelectric. Other provinces and other territories might have those opportunities as well, but that takes planning. I mentioned the timeline for the Site C dam. What was it, about 10 years? It was about 10 years just on construction, right? Not in one fell swoop do you do this. You need the time and the planning and the figuring out of the right energy mix for each part of our country from coast to coast to coast.

Speaking of coast to coast to coast, I'm back to Alberta. Let's look at what the mayor of Edmonton, Amarjeet Sohi, said about budget 2023. He said, “The incentives to support renewable energy, hydrogen and growth in the clean tech sector will help grow and decarbonize our economy, while creating well-paying middle class jobs.”

Again, there's a focus on growth of the economy and well-paying, middle-class jobs. I think that should be something we all share as things that we would want to see and learn more about in terms of how we can keep investing in it.

The reason I'm going through these statements, Mr. Chair, is that a question was raised: Has this federal Liberal government done anything on electricity? Time and time again, as I'm going through this list, we're hearing from people who say, yes, they have. In budget 2023 we see that commitment. We see so much work being done. We see the opportunity. If the Conservatives decided to not go ahead with this amendment, or if we were to defeat this amendment, we would be able to continue with this electricity study and ask those kinds of questions and find out more about it.

I have more pieces about it. I've talked about the different unions that have responded to it. One thing that I thought was interesting—I'm an Ontarian, so I'm always interested in what's coming out from Ontario—was this from Rocco Rossi, president and CEO of the Ontario Chamber of Commerce:

We welcome commitments made in Budget 2023 to unlock the potential of the green economy, advance economic reconciliation, mitigate supply chain challenges, and bolster health care resilience—all of which are fundamental to a strong economy.

Those are all the pieces fundamental to a strong economy and they're really important.

One piece I heard from the witnesses when they did come, the panel that I guess we'll have to recall.... Unfortunately, we weren't able to complete our rounds and really get to the bottom of all of the information and expertise they brought to us. I believe that at some point questions about supply chain were raised. What are those supply chain issues? How do we resolve those supply chain issues? What do we need to do? If we don't get the experts here, then we don't get to ask those questions and we don't get to make those recommendations. What are we going to have to do as our next steps?

I think that statement, that response to budget 2023 from the then president and CEO of the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, Rocco Rossi, really highlights why that's important. It's all of the different pieces that come together.

I mentioned—and I think there's some value in this—that when I talk with industry and people looking to invest in Canada, one of the things they talk about is our clean grid. That's a draw. They look at it and say that we—I'm speaking as if I were a company when I say that—need to show that our business is ready to meet our ESG standards, that we're meeting ESG standards. If they are looking at their carbon footprint, one of the things that's important is the energy they're using to get there.

Certainly that's something we have seen over the past couple of years, and I think it's a real tribute to the work that's been done by Minister François-Philippe Champagne, but also by our government. We have seen massive investment in automobile manufacture in Canada. Really massive amazing investments have been happening that are transformative for Ontario. The fact that we are able to provide them with a very clean grid in Ontario is definitely a draw.

The other thing we have to think about—and I feel as if I'm going to get a chance to get to that a bit—is that knowing we're attracting such manufacturing to our province and to our country also means that we're going to need more electrical grid capacity to meet that. It's the double piece to this, right?

It's great news that we're attracting this investment. It's creating good-paying jobs in Ontario, when I'm talking about auto manufacturing. I know that in Quebec there has also been investment in the industry, particularly on the battery supply chain side. When we're talking about that and that draw, that's great news. It's great that we're able to attract those investments.

What are we also going to have to do? We're going to have to make sure our electrical grid keeps up. Again, if we bring those witnesses, if we get to continue with this study, we can ask those important questions.

Honestly, the time is now. They are building their manufacturing capacities right now. Those lines are going to be opening up for those battery manufacturers, for the electric vehicles, to build the vehicles. We need to be able to keep up and to keep doing the work we need to do, and the time is now.

If this amendment goes through, Mr. Chair, we're going to be putting this whole study back farther. We're not going to be able to ask those questions. We're not going to be able to really get to the nitty-gritty of what their needs are, to find out provincially and regionally what the needs are going to be. How is it going to change? How can we support each other across provinces and territories? We're not going to get that chance.

I'll go back to budget 2023, because it was such an amazing budget when we talk about things like clean technologies and electricity. As I think you will probably have seen by now—because I've been able to go through these statements—it was really well received.

The Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association—that's what really got me thinking about the automobiles—said:

The 2023 federal budget recognizes the competitiveness challenges posed by the U.S. Inflation Reduction Act...and introduces several new measures in response that will help to level the playing field for automotive and battery supply chain investments...

That's an important piece.

My final quote about budget 2023, before I can talk a bit about some other pieces I had in mind, is from the executive director of Marine Renewables Canada, who said:

The upcoming launch of the Canada Growth Fund and the tax credit for green hydrogen could play a significant role in catalyzing Canada’s first offshore wind to green hydrogen projects, as well as the associated electricity infrastructure needed

Think about all those pieces right there in that first sentence. We're talking about green hydrogen. We're talking about offshore wind. We're talking about the associated electrical infrastructure. I'm going on. I'm sorry.

I'll go back to the executive director of Marine Renewables Canada, who said:

We are also pleased to see further support for other marine renewable energy technologies through the investment tax credit and commitment to improve regulatory processes. To achieve net zero goals, we know Canada will need 2-3 times more clean electricity—and this statement is a positive step towards meeting those climate goals.

Again, there's reference to the fact that we're absolutely going to need more electricity to meet our climate goals, but budget 2023 was a significant step forward.

One piece that really got me thinking when I read that is about Bill C-49. Bill C-49 was about offshore wind for Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia. We worked with those provinces to come up with the regulatory framework we need to be able to develop that offshore wind industry. It brings so much opportunity to the Atlantic region and to our country. Again, we're talking about good-paying jobs. We're talking about clean electricity.

When I was talking about nuclear, I talked about Romania and how we are supporting nuclear there. On offshore wind, Germany, another one of our allies, came and talked with us and said they had this need. They know they need to transition from the forms of energy they're using, and they don't want to rely on Russian oil and gas. They want to make sure that they have allies they can work with. They said, “Hey, Canada, we're looking to you to help supply us with green hydrogen. We believe in you.” We were able to be those people, that country of opportunity and that ally, and Bill C-49 for offshore wind was a critical piece of that.

It was really quite unfortunate that it took us such a long time to pass that bill and that we weren't able to get the support I would have liked to see to get through this process more quickly, just because there was such opportunity.

Frankly, it's also about working with our provinces and territories. They wanted this. Bill C-49 was about agreements we had reached with Newfoundland and Labrador and with Nova Scotia. They said they wanted to partner with the federal government. That's our role. As a responsible federal government, our role is to be a good partner, so I was really happy that we were able, in this committee, to finally get Bill C-49 back out and to pass that through, because it's so important.

It's important to us. It's important for the opportunities in our Atlantic provinces. It's important in terms of the partnerships we have with our Atlantic provinces. It was an opportunity to see how we can also help internationally and how we can be that source of clean electricity. Like I said, the International Energy Agency itself points to the global need for clean energy. That's where the world is looking to build. It's an important piece.

Now, I was troubled when I heard this idea that Canada hasn't done anything in electricity. I've gone through multiple examples of organizations and unions that have looked at budget 2023—and not just budget 2023. They commented on budget 2023 and said, “Yes, Canada has done that heavy lifting when we look at electricity.”

I always love to refer to this page in the budget—I think it's page 76. There is a pyramid. It's Canada's plan for a clean economy described in a pyramid. It's a great way of looking at how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together. I find it to be a helpful tool. At the bottom of the pyramid, one foundational piece is pollution pricing and the regulatory framework. That includes large-emitter pricing systems, contracts for differences and clean fuel regulations.

Then you take the next step and have the investment tax credits, which include clean electricity, clean hydrogen, clean technology adoption and clean technology manufacturing—all of those types of ITCs. They are the next part the pyramid builds on. They also form an important part. I read through some of those statements in reaction to budget 2023. They talked about how those ITCs were another foundational piece to the work our government is doing to support clean energy in our country.

Now, the next part of that pyramid—we're going higher up here—is the strategic finance piece. That's the Canada Infrastructure Bank. It's the Canada Growth Fund.

I'm sorry. I'm going to digress for one second, because a lot of people were asking what the Infrastructure Bank is going to do. One amazing project, if we're talking about clean electricity and energy, is the Oneida battery storage project in Ontario. I stand to be corrected, but I believe it is the largest battery storage project in North America. If it's not North America, it certainly is Canada. That is a project that shows strong partnership with Six Nations. It also shows an important investment by the Canada Infrastructure Bank to provide the battery storage we're going to need for our reliable, clean electrical grid.

Again, I would love to be able to ask more questions about the role of the Infrastructure Bank, the role of battery storage and what those pieces are. Unfortunately, those are not things I'm going to be able to ask about if we have this amendment go forth. I'm going to miss that opportunity.

Now, at the top of this pyramid is targeted programming. The target program includes the strategic innovation fund, the smart renewables electrification pathways program—I think I mentioned that a little bit earlier—the clean fuels fund and the low-carbon economy fund.

I'm going to use the example of a low-carbon economy fund. It has helped to fund projects right across our country, some very interesting and innovative projects. One of them that I thought was really interesting is at the University of Toronto, my alma mater. I graduated from the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto. They built a geothermal district energy system on their campus. The campus is like—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus, we have you on a point of order.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know we only have 15 minutes left, and the clock's going to be talked out, so I might not get a chance.

I just wanted to get a sense from you, Chair, of how many meetings we have left, because, for every day that Ms. Dabrusin decides to waste our time, we have a report that doesn't get finished, and there's stuff we need to do. Could you tell us how many meetings we have left that we're going to have to sit through Ms. Dabrusin and her colleagues filibustering our efforts to move forward? With my other colleagues, I think we're all in this together. We've done some great work, but it'd be good to get a sense of how many more days this is going to happen before the summer recess.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

We have about 15 minutes left in today's meeting, and if we go up to June 20, we have six meetings remaining.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much for that. I needed to know that.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus, I know you're online. I do have you on the list, so we may get to you today. Just be prepared.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'll be here until the end of June. Whenever I get my chance, don't worry, I'm waiting with bated breath. If it's June 5, June, 8 June, 10, or whenever, when you get me on the list, I'll be more than happy to participate.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you for your co-operation.

Ms. Dabrusin, we'll go back to you.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I appreciate that he's waiting with bated breath and I appreciate that he has an interest in all of this. To the point, though, this is not about wasted time. This is about answering the questions that we had kind of put toward witnesses and weren't able to continue on with in the study. It's about trying to make sure that we outline for everyone here why it's so important that we go ahead with the electricity study.

When we're done with that study, let's go to Mr. Angus's study, a study that I've said I agree to. I am good to go ahead with that study. I will probably be proposing some amendments, as I said, to make sure we have community voices included. But we had a study before us. We had a panel before us ready to answer our questions. We had to dismiss them before the normal time. We had a project planned for this study. We haven't been able to continue with it and we won't be able to continue with it if the amendment proposed by the Conservatives goes ahead.

I'm just hoping that by outlining some of these examples I'm helping to convince the other members of this committee why it's so terribly important that we do look at this study on the electrical grid and that we don't just toss it aside.

Before I talk a little bit more about the low-carbon economy fund and other kinds of funding supports that we have for electricity that our government has put in place, I would ask whether this is something that the other members of this committee would agree to: Let's not go ahead with this amendment. Let's drop this amendment. That's a possibility. Let's complete the clean electricity study we had in front of us. Then let's move on to Mr. Angus's study.

The interesting part about this is that, as far as I can tell, although I don't think I've heard from absolutely everyone yet, not only would Mr. Angus's motion pass; it would pass unanimously, I believe. Why not take that opportunity? It would actually be a rare and beautiful moment for this committee to say, hey, we're all agreed on this. We all want to study it together. We might be coming at it from different perspectives as to what we want to bring through with Mr. Angus's study, but let's do it. Let's do that study.

Why supersede the electricity study? Why do away with the work that we've started? Ultimately, by the way, every time we do something where we start a study and then we stop it, and we stop it for a whole period of time, and then we get back to it—it could be months later or almost a year later—it just ends up being so outdated. It's outdated from what we've heard from the witnesses we've had already. That becomes dated. You have to call them again. It means that things overtake you, to some extent.

I've been talking about the importance of planning ahead and looking ahead, and about all the steps of what we need to be looking at, be it from the employment perspective, be it from the investment perspective and be it about the different regional needs. We either get to complete the study now and make it a timely study, making the evidence that we've already heard timely, or we lose that. It becomes an outdated study that we complete a year from now. That's what I'm really imploring the other members of this committee to think about.

Why not just go ahead, have all committee members show that kind of co-operation and goodwill and agree to Mr. Angus's study? I believe that motion will pass once we get to it. The challenge is that the Conservative amendment that was brought would supersede the electricity study. That's the part that doesn't quite make sense to me.

That's what I'm hoping for.

If it wasn't about all of the statements I was able to bring forward until now about budget 2023.... If they don't convince people and get them excited about what we could be studying in the growth opportunities, the jobs and the affordability pieces.... If they don't do the trick, I have a few other things I can bring to mind that might help people think about this a bit more, and about what they would like to see and do.

Before Mr. Angus's intervention, I was talking about the low-carbon economy fund, which provides some very interesting and different funding projects.

I was talking about my alma mater, the University of Toronto. This was interesting to me, but it makes sense when you think about the size, not only of all its buildings, but also of the number of students and faculty on campus. There are so many people. It's really like a small town. The university is built a geothermal system right in the centre of its campus. It's a district energy system. It can actually help support the City of Toronto system a bit if it has excess energy along the way.

The low-carbon economy fund helped it do that. That is a great support to reduce emissions.

I'm going to have to look into it again, but I think the University of Toronto has been rated one of the top universities from a clean energy or environmental perspective. It's also building tall timber, but that's for a whole other study on another day.

Anyway, that was just something I wanted to flag about the low-carbon economy fund in the targeted programming. That's the top of the pyramid when we're looking at clean electricity. It's all those building blocks that fit together.

I hope this goes to show that, in fact, Canada has been doing a lot, and our federal government has been doing a lot, to put in place all of these building blocks to make sure that we have what we need to get that strong, affordable, reliable and clean electrical grid.

That is some of the stuff you have seen.

Now, going to the other piece, because I've been talking about economic growth, one of the parts I would be really interested in being able to ask more questions about, when we talk about electricity and our electricity needs, is the impact of artificial intelligence on our energy needs as a country. When we look at this budget, budget 2024, there are investments in artificial intelligence. It's a growing sector. It's certainly a sector that we are trying to grow in our country. It provides a lot of opportunities, again, for different kinds of good-paying jobs. It's a different part of the economy that we're growing.

I also talked a bit about how the auto sector investments in battery technology, manufacturing and all of that bring with them needs for more energy, but what I didn't really focus on, and what I would really like a chance to ask witnesses about, is the impact of that. What do we need to be thinking about around AI and our electrical needs? Again, it's probably going to have regional implications.

When I looked at that, I was reading some articles and just getting some information about it, and there was some work on what is even a need to have Energy Star ratings for AI models.

I didn't even realize that training GPT-3, for example, is estimated to use just under 1,300 megawatt hours of electricity. That's about as much power as is consumed annually by 130 homes.

This is kind of a fun comparison. Streaming an hour of Netflix requires around 0.8 kilowatt hours of electricity. That means you'd have to watch 1,000,625 hours of Netflix to consume the same amount of power that it takes to train GPT-3. That's from an article in The Verge that came out earlier this year.

That's a lot of energy that we're going to need when we're looking at AI. There are huge possibilities, good-paying jobs and an area of growth for our country, but that's going to have a different kind of regional impact.

Sometimes we ask questions and we think about it in terms of some things that we've traditionally thought about, like certain manufacturing sectors and what those electricity impacts are. We can ask about what it means as we talk about changing the way we move our vehicles, the way we heat and cool our homes, but the other question is, as we build in new technology and industries, what energy storage will we need?

As an example, there was a paper by Dr. Sasha Luccioni, who is a leading AI researcher and climate lead at Hugging Face, based in Montreal. She's the one who had advocated to introduce Energy Star ratings for AI models.

She was talking about a test of 88 models generating text versus image generation energy uses. If you were going to use some examples of what that looked like for images images, it was based on 1,000 requested with text versus images. On one little test, the amount of power was equivalent to running a washing machine for about 2.9 loads of laundry. I know a whole lot about laundry. I do a lot of laundry in my home. It's an unfortunate thing, but there you go. That's a whole lot of laundry that you get for just that one image.

On projected growth in energy use from AI, Alex de Vries, a Ph.D. candidate at the University of Amsterdam, uses Nvidia GPUs to estimate AI's global energy usage. That currently represents about 95% of the AI hardware market. It provides specs and sales projections.

The calculation—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have a point of order.