Evidence of meeting #36 for Natural Resources in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was candu.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Payne  National President, Unifor
Smith  Vice-President, Marketing and Business Development, Candu Energy Inc., An AtkinsRéalis Company

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

I call this meeting to order.

I'll start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

This is meeting number 36 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I would like to remind participants of the following points: Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

This is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the Chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted Thursday, September 18, 2025, the committee shall resume its study of Canadian energy exports.

I would like to welcome our witness for this first hour.

From Unifor, we have Lana Payne, national president.

Colleagues, as you know, all of our witnesses have mandatory onboarding—

11 a.m.

Liberal

Claude Guay Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Jennifer needs to be let in. She's trying to get in by Zoom.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

We're trying to let one of our colleagues in.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Jonathan Rowe Conservative Terra Nova—The Peninsulas, NL

There's enough of you guys.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

You're always trying to stack this committee.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

We'll pause for a moment, colleagues.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Colleagues, we were having a good conversation about antelopes.

That is a prairie animal, Corey. There are lots of them in Saskatchewan.

Ms. Payne, welcome. You have the committee to yourself for the full hour. I know there will be some good questions, and we really look forward to hearing from you.

You have five minutes.

Lana Payne National President, Unifor

Thank you very much, Chair.

Good day to all of you.

Unifor is proudly Canada's energy union, with 15,000 members working in oil and gas extraction, natural gas distribution, HVAC, electric utilities, petroleum refineries, chemical production and nuclear energy. We have members from Newfoundland and Labrador all the way to British Columbia. Our members work in production. They maintain a significant portion of the over 750,000—

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Ms. Payne, if we could ask you to pause, we're having a sound issue. Try to put the microphone at the middle of your mouth.

11:05 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Lana Payne

Is it on my end? I can hear you all very well.

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

The interpretation is working very well. The sound in the room isn't working.

11:05 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Lana Payne

Can you hear me now?

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Yes. Go ahead, please.

11:05 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Lana Payne

That's great. I knew we would get it working sooner or later, so I will continue.

Our members work in production. They maintain a significant portion of the more than 750,000 kilometres of pipelines in Canada. They run oil and gas refineries, biofuel facilities, midstream transportation, downstream distribution, industrial and commercial use and heating and cooling infrastructure. They build and refurbish nuclear reactors for Candu Energy, so yes, you can take from this that we also bargain collective agreements with some of the biggest and most profitable companies on the planet.

Our members are operating engineers, skilled trades, technicians, heavy-duty truck drivers, control room operators, marine tank operators, nuclear engineers and scientists, and railway workers. As a union that represents the workers who stop energy infrastructure from blowing up or leaking out and who ensure the safe and efficient transport of oil, gas and energy products across this country and around the world, we support the diversity of safe methods of moving product, including but not limited to legal, commercially viable, properly regulated and well-maintained pipelines.

As Canada's largest private sector union, we support reducing export monopoly and dependency with the United States wherever we can. While this means expanding capacity to diversify exports and ensure a fair price for our natural resources, it also means that we must maintain and expand industrial capacity here at home.

Our domestic oil and gas sector is described as a money-printing machine for shareholders. Record profits in the industry were expected before Trump's war with Iran. The reason these companies are printing money is that companies in the production and export side of the industry are doubling down on what we call capital discipline. This means that they are spending as little as possible on workers and maintenance in order to maximize profits. As such, they have significantly reduced investment in new capacity and are simply running the capacity as hard as they can.

Obviously, royalties, corporate taxes and income taxes generate revenue for the government. Most recently, fuel taxes have been reduced for consumers. Energy workers, wages and jobs, though, are one of the only other ways we can keep some of that revenue in this country. I hear a lot across the spectrum that we support energy workers, but this must also translate to the shop floor. We do not see or have not seen a maintaining of the number of energy workers, even as output volumes and profits continue to increase. We are outsourcing, subcontracting to non-union work, and we have seen a lot of automation while infrastructure is pushed to its limit.

The goal of your committee is to examine how to support Canada's being an energy superpower. I want to be clear that, without domestic capacity for refining chemical and plastic production, Canada simply subsidizes the energy superpower to the south or helps economies around the world before securing our own.

Unifor has become increasingly concerned with domestic chemical production capacity. The current economy, economics, trade war with the United States and shifting regulatory environment have not supported continued investment in our downstream and chemical sectors, and that's a problem. Instead, we're losing important capacity, including with the closures of Ineos in Sarnia and Biox in Hamilton, coupled with delayed investment from Shell and Dow Chemical.

We continue to see not energy resiliency but offshoring production capacity and increased dependency on imported energy products. Meanwhile, downstream energy infrastructure is left to deteriorate, including pipelines. Both undermine our energy security and our energy superpower status.

In response, our union has launched a campaign called “Keep it in the Pipe” to call out run-to-fail strategies while highlighting the need for investment to reduce methane and other chemical leaks in midstream and distribution infrastructure. We do this by hiring and investing in energy workers, who are essential to maintaining energy infrastructure.

I will conclude by also saying that, with a renewed focus on industrial strategies in our country, which we're very glad to see, including in the area of defence, we must account for the energy inputs of these industrial strategies in order for them to be successful. This means understanding that building a stronger, more resilient Canadian economy starts with building more energy and, above all, investing in energy infrastructure and the workers who maintain it and keep it safe.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you, Ms. Payne.

We will now go to our first round of questions and comments.

Mr. Malette, you have six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madame Payne, for taking the time to meet with this committee.

Whether it is in energy, forestry or mining, Unifor represents, as you said, 15,000 workers from these key industries. You're aware that last week two mills in northern Ontario shut down, affecting hundreds of workers. How can the government step up to protect well-paying jobs in the natural resource sector?

11:10 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Lana Payne

Thank you for that.

I should clarify that Unifor actually represents about 120,000 workers in what would be trade-exposed areas of the economy. These include energy, forestry, manufacturing and the other sectors you named. Of those, 15,000 are in the energy sector across Canada.

There are a number of things we can do. We have to look at how we build industrial strategies to support Canadian production and Canadian jobs. We've seen a start in that regard. With respect to the forest sector, I have just been part of a task force on the forest sector with a number of company representatives. We have made, and are submitting very soon, our final document to the government in terms of how we need to first stabilize the industry. Whether it be the softwood duties we are seeing in the industry or the tariffs on softwood lumber, these things are making it very difficult for the industry to operate. We have to support, as much as we can, the supply chain of the forestry sector, from sawmills to paper mills and pulp mills.

As you've pointed out, we have lost way too much production over the last six months across our country. We have to look at how we stabilize that. This means supporting the infrastructure when we can and then looking at how we expand our domestic market for forest products and lumber. That means looking at how we match these two crises we have in our country—the forest crisis and the affordable housing crisis. If we can find a way to make sure we're scaling up in that regard, building factories and building homes as quickly as we can for Canadians in an affordable fashion, we can take some of the pressure off what we are losing now in terms of our inability to export as much as we would to the United States because of the crushing costs of these duties and the tariffs themselves.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

Thank you, and thank you for clarifying that there are over 120,000 workers in the sectors you represent.

When a well-paying job is created and then lost in such places as, where I'm from, Timmins, Kirkland Lake, Hearst or Cochrane, what does that mean for the surrounding communities? How important are these jobs to stimulate the local economy, from your point of view?

11:15 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Lana Payne

They're extremely important. As you probably know, our sawmill in Ear Falls was recently curtailed there and idled. The reality, particularly in smaller communities around Canada, is that this is the economic engine. When a well-paying union job disappears, it impacts the entire community. We see communities being dismantled as a result of that economic engine's disappearing. It's very concerning. It means that the workers are likely displaced and end up having to go and work in other industries, often long distances away from home. Eventually, these communities do not have the support they need for their infrastructure or their services. That is a very big problem.

We have seen this before, particularly in the forest industry in small communities across Canada. That's why it's so incredibly important that we have a national industrial plan to support the forest sector across this country and that they have access to affordable energy so that they can operate these facilities throughout Canada.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

Thank you.

In the energy sector, the oil sector, as more experienced workers retire, are the younger workers filling up the employment gap? Is that intake sufficient to meet the labour demand of all these energy developments that we're looking forward to having?

11:15 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Lana Payne

In the current facilities, you're seeing two things happening. One is a push by companies to automate, to use AI and to use advanced technology, which often displaces workers. We're not opposed to technology. I don't want to leave you with that impression. However, in order to maintain very good energy jobs in this country, we also have to make sure that we're maintaining the infrastructure and the energy infrastructure that we have. That is a critical piece, and we have been seeing a deterioration in that regard.

We would like to see regulations that enforce and make it more possible to improve the maintenance of infrastructure. This also helps us maintain very good energy jobs in the sector all across the country. That's why we've been talking about “Keep it in the Pipe”, our campaign, which for sure is about maintaining infrastructure, but it's also about protecting the environment and making sure that we're reducing emissions.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Malette.

Mr. Danko, you have six minutes.

John-Paul Danko Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Payne, thank you for joining us this morning. Of course, organized labour has a very proud, strong tradition in Hamilton. Our government has been very clear in our goals to protect Canadian jobs and protect the Canadian economy. Our goal is not only to protect but also to expand, enhance and provide workers and families the opportunities they deserve for the future.

You talked about Unifor's representing 15,000 members working in oil and gas extraction. Currently, we're at record-high production limits in the oil and gas energy sector and record-high exports for LNG. These are highly trained, highly skilled, highly specialized workers.

Can you give me a state of the current workforce? Are there jobs available right now? Are those positions being filled? Is it a competitive job environment? Where are those workers being trained and brought into the workforce?

11:15 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Lana Payne

These are highly skilled jobs. I've named some of the work that our members do. It's not just in oil and gas extraction; it's in maintaining the distribution pipelines, all of that work as well. We proudly represent nuclear engineers and scientists at Candu, so throughout the energy sector we have a lot of members and a variety of experience representing different types of workplaces and jobs.

We have to continue to train for the energy sector. We are seeing massive expansion in Ontario alone, for example, in the area of nuclear. It has been very good to see that being added to the mix of our energy resiliency here in Canada. This requires people to have all sorts of skills, so we have to make sure that our educational institutions are properly and well funded to support the training in the energy sector.

I go back to this other side as well. It is about making sure that we keep the facilities and the production that we have so that we can expand.

On the chemical side of things, I'm not seeing the kind of resiliency we want to see. We've lost a number of workplaces that were providing important outputs, things we use in our daily lives that we need to have. If we're wanting to build a more sovereign nation, we have to look at all of these aspects of production in our country. Our members understand exactly how important it is to be self-sufficient in those areas.

We need to examine our supply chain from across the entire energy spectrum and make sure that we're building a more resilient energy sector in Canada for the use of Canadians so that we are in all the places we can be and less dependent on the world around us. I think we all agree that the world is a very challenging place right now.

John-Paul Danko Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

Thank you.

How much more time do I have, Chair?