Evidence of meeting #45 for Natural Resources in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Carter  Committee Researcher
Boivin  Mayor of Saguenay, As an Individual
Bellissimo  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Renewable Energy Association
Patterson  President and Chief Executive Officer, WaterPower Canada

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Colleagues, let me call this meeting to order and welcome you all back to Parliament Hill. We're at day three. I hope you had a great summer reconnecting with constituents and family.

Let me also start by acknowledging, as we always do, that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Welcome to meeting number 45 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

I would particularly like to welcome new members of the committee. We'll be electing a vice-chair shortly.

Welcome, Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Diotte, I think you're subbing for someone today, but welcome.

Monsieur Malette, it's good to have you back as the continuity on the committee, and of course you added mightily to our forestry study with an all-expenses-paid trip to Norway and Sweden with some of our colleagues.

Mario—or

Mr. Simard, I'm sorry.

It's great to have you.

Ms. Anstey, welcome.

Just let me say at the start, colleagues, that this has been a very collegial committee. We've done some good work. A report on critical minerals was conducted. Recommendations were made. The report was sent to the government. My understanding is that we actually had the recommendations responded to. I know we'll all be interested in looking at that.

I'm required to read the following before we elect our vice-chair on the opposition side. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Welcome to Ms. Khalid, who is subbing in today.

Before we continue, I would ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Our interpreters have done a fantastic job for us and will continue to do so. You will also notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

We'll jump right in. If the committee is in agreement, I will ask the clerk to proceed with the election of the vice-chair.

Madam Clerk, it's over to you.

The Clerk of the Committee Vicky Sedhya Maurice-Sevigny

Thank you.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition. I am now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Crowfoot, AB

I nominate Carol Anstey as vice-chair.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

That motion has been moved, colleagues.

All in favour?

(Motion agreed to)

It's unanimous.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Congratulations, Ms. Anstey. We look forward to working with you.

We are in committee business, colleagues. When discussing committee business, there are a few items to consider. I would like to invite members of the committee to start thinking about possible new studies that the committee may wish to undertake. I know that Ms. Anstey and I have already talked about that. I think we won't be tabling them today, but we'll be asking you to think about it and come back. We'll have a committee business meeting when we return after the constituency week.

Go ahead, Monsieur Simard.

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

It's good to see you again.

We had a brief discussion, Mr. Guay, Mr. Hogan, who isn't here today, Mr. Malette and I—

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Monsieur Simard, let's pause here.

Can everybody hear the interpretation? No.

I'll suspend for a moment.

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

What I was saying, Mr. Chair, is that we had a brief discussion beforehand on a subject that might interest everyone.

Mr. Guay, Mr. Hogan and I—and I spoke to Mr. Malette earlier—think we could very cordially add this to our study on forestry. It has to end one day, I understand that very well, but a specific situation has come up: We now understand that at the end of November or December, I believe, a deforestation standard will come into effect in Europe. That would mean that products from the Chinese and Russian forestry sectors would be subject to tariffs in Europe at a level I do not currently know. If that happens, their niche market will probably become Canada and the United States. We would do well to look into that, to see how we could be affected once the European Union has decided to go ahead, and to see whether it's possible to think about some kind of mirror measure.

I think it would be worthwhile to conduct a study of no more than two meetings on this. It could also get off to a good start, because we all know that, sooner rather than later, the federal government is going to present the strategy that follows on from the task force's work. I think it would be worth looking into this issue, since it's something that may affect us greatly in the coming months. Mr. Guay and Mr. Hogan seemed to agree, and so did Mr. Malette.

My friendly proposal would be to move a motion, at our next meeting, that would enable us to hold two meetings to look into this and perhaps see how we can address this issue, which is going to be important for us. I'm saying this because there's a general consensus, and there won't be any debate on it. We don't have to hold a lot of meetings on it.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you, Mr. Simard.

We invite all members to think about what we would like to study. We're going to have a lot on our plate with the forestry study and with the response to the energy export recommendations, as well as completing the study we're undertaking today on energy security.

Colleagues, we're going to put this on the agenda for our next meeting. As we have done in the past, we encourage informal dialogue among all of you. We have come up with a consensus list that has been agreeable to all members. As you know, we like to address the priorities of the opposition, of the governing party and of the Bloc Québécois, and we've been successful in setting out an agenda that has worked well for us. I encourage you to come back with those ideas and talk amongst yourselves. I'm sure we'll settle on some priorities that are agreeable to everyone.

I'm going to move on.

I'm sorry. We have Mr. Guay.

Claude Guay Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

I just want to add something to what Mr. Simard said, Mr. Chair.

I think this is an emergency, because we're talking about something that can hurt the lumber industry. That means it's related to what we worked on with lumber. If the European measure takes effect in November, those products will almost immediately start being dumped here in Canada.

In any case, I would encourage Mr. Simard to move the motion now or shortly, so that we can move forward on this at the next meeting. I just want to say that I think it's urgent. This is something we should consider quickly.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you for that comment. We'll revisit this when we come back after the break.

Colleagues, let's take a look at the committee calendar for the upcoming weeks. I have a brief update.

Madam Clerk, do insert yourself if I forget something.

We're going to look at the availability of time to do new studies. Some of them may be extremely timely and urgent, as Monsieur Guay has said.

Currently, the committee calendar is as follows. On Monday, October 5, we're going to continue with Canada's electrification energy self-sufficiency and domestic energy security study. On Wednesday, the 7th, I think we had anticipated that we would need the meeting for continuation of the energy security study.

Colleagues, you may have to leave this with me on the issue of committee business, given some of the statements I've heard from you today. On Monday, October 19, we have a break week in there, as you know, after the 12th.

Analysts, the forestry study report, with recommendations, has been written and is in translation, as I understand it.

Go ahead, please.

Laura Carter Committee Researcher

We received the report back from translation today. It's going through the House publications office, and then we will review it to make sure it's in the right state to distribute to members.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

On both November 4 and November 19 we would be going through the report clause by clause. I think that is the suggestion. Okay.

We'll map this out for you formally and make sure it's sent to you by email so that you all know what to expect. I think I've heard today in committee business that forestry is going to be very much on the menu for this committee, at a very important time. I'll keep you updated as the calendar develops.

Colleagues, I think we have witnesses waiting. I'm going to suspend because we have to bring them in. We will hear from them shortly.

We are suspended.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Colleagues, we're back in session.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, April 23, the committee has resumed its study of Canada's electrification, energy self-sufficiency and domestic energy security.

I would like to welcome Luc Boivin, mayor of Saguenay, as an individual.

From the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, we have Vittoria Bellissimo, president and chief executive officer.

From WaterPower Canada, we have Lorena Patterson, president and chief executive officer.

Welcome, all of you.

All virtual witnesses have conducted a mandatory witness onboarding test.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. I have a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair. You will each have five minutes for your opening remarks, after which we will open the floor to questions.

Mr. Boivin, the floor is yours.

Luc Boivin Mayor of Saguenay, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, especially vice-chair Mario Simard, MP for my great city, thank you for having me here today.

My name is Luc Boivin. I am the mayor of the city of Saguenay, the northern metropolis of eastern Canada, an immersive city and one of the major cities in Quebec. Our city has a population of just over 150,000 across a vast area with a northern climate.

Saguenay is one of the few municipalities in Quebec to generate, harness and distribute its own electricity. Our municipal service Hydro-Jonquière manages three power plants and supplies electricity directly to the residents of the Jonquière borough. That capacity is part of a broader regional history. Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean has built itself up around its resources and energy, together with major companies like Rio Tinto and now Domtar. In the truest sense, we are responsible water builders with decades of expertise in building, maintaining and operating hydroelectric projects.

That expertise is just a starting point. Saguenay also sees the potential of wind, solar and tidal power to diversify its clean energy production and build up reserves that can meet demand during peak periods. Quebec's electricity system currently relies mostly on large hydroelectric projects. We believe in a complementary transformation that protects existing sites, while diversifying the range of infrastructure types and sizes, including through new wind farms and a multitude of small power plants in our region, which still has rivers and suitable locations. Multiplying those resources means strengthening the system's resilience, both to respond to peak periods and to ensure a stable supply throughout the year.

This development will also have to be carried out in partnership with the indigenous nations in our territory, whose collaboration is essential to the success of any new energy project. The development of these systems depends on local stakeholders. We know the land, our citizens and what it takes to ensure the social acceptability of each project. It's important to give local stakeholders more autonomy through federal tools such as the Canada Infrastructure Bank, bearing in mind that the people in the best position to carry out a local project are those from the community itself. Saguenay is also working to modernize its own regulations to enable its citizens to generate their own energy directly at the point of consumption and sell the surplus. That project has become urgent with the rise in the number of electric vehicles and the electrification of transport.

Our request is simple [Technical difficulty—Editor]

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

He's asking for nothing.

Mayor Boivin, you froze for a moment. If you can go back about 30 seconds, we can hear what you had to say.

Thank you.

5:40 p.m.

Mayor of Saguenay, As an Individual

Luc Boivin

I was saying that Saguenay is also working to modernize its own regulations to enable its citizens to generate their energy directly at the point of consumption. For example, we're working from an urban planning perspective to improve the installation of solar panels on homes, with the goal of ensuring that they fit in well with the landscape.

Our request is simple: RCMs should be considered the best option for diversifying supply in the areas of medium and small power.

Saguenay also holds a strategic position in diversifying Canadian markets. Our deepwater port and our industrial port zone make us a natural player in the northern corridor, and we intend to be a leader in its development. Of course, it's necessary to exercise that increased autonomy while respecting provincial and territorial jurisdiction over energy. Saguenay wants to be a partner in that collective effort.

Thank you for listening. I'm ready to answer your questions.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you, Mr. Boivin.

Ms. Bellissimo, you have the floor for five minutes.

Vittoria Bellissimo President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Renewable Energy Association

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear today on behalf of the over 300 members of the Canadian Renewable Energy Association. My organization, also known as CanREA, is the voice for the wind energy, solar energy and energy storage solutions that will power Canada's energy future. We work to create the conditions for a modern energy system through stakeholder advocacy and public engagement. Our member companies are uniquely positioned to deliver clean, low-cost, reliable, flexible and scalable solutions that will help protect affordability for Canadian homes and businesses while powering industrial growth.

Canada is entering a period of significant electricity demand growth. Industrial expansion, electrification, manufacturing and emerging technologies all require more power. The new supply needs to be there and built before demand outpaces capacity. Wind, solar and energy storage can be a major part of the solution. They're affordable, reliable, clean and, importantly, can be deployed quickly. This is why jurisdictions across Canada are turning to renewables and energy storage at record rates—and not just for power generation. They're turning to CanREA members for grid support and demand management as well.

In Ontario's recent long-term request for proposals—LT2—capacity procurement, the system operator set out to buy, in an independent and competitive bid process, solutions to handle peak power demand. Instead of procuring new natural gas generation, the system operator selected 640 megawatts of capacity from eight-hour batteries. These new batteries will complement Ontario's existing generation portfolio while helping the system remain reliable during periods of peak demand. However, this is about more than producing electricity. It's also an enormous economic opportunity.

The LT2 procurement that I just mentioned is one of the many happening across the country. My team is tracking 26,000 megawatts—or 26 gigawatts—of power procurements happening across Canada. We estimate that these procurements represent roughly $46 billion in new investments, but that is just a start. CanREA's recent “Watts at Stake” report estimates that Canada could attract up to $200 billion in investment in wind, solar and energy storage by the mid-2030s. The question is how much of that opportunity Canada captures.

Over the past few years, many provinces and the federal government set the country on the path to realizing this opportunity. Repeated competitive provincial procurements, combined with the federal clean economy tax investment tax credits and access to indigenous equity financing, can make Canada a leading destination for grid-scale investment.

We can strengthen that position further by simplifying access to the investment tax credits, accelerating transmission development and providing durable policy certainty on supply chains and carbon policy. The electricity build-out also creates an opportunity to manufacture more of what we need here in Canada.

CanREA and Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors recently completed the first comprehensive examination of Canada's renewable energy and energy storage supply chain. Our analysis found that up to 30% of capital expenditures on new renewable electricity and energy storage through 2035 could potentially be spent on made-in-Canada components. This could mean up to $100 billion in additional domestic manufacturing investment. This will require a tailored suite of incentives for both manufacturers and project developers.

Canada has a significant opportunity in front of us. We can build the electricity Canadians need, keep energy affordable, attract up to $200 billion in investment in renewables and storage and up to $100 billion in domestic manufacturing, strengthen Canadian manufacturing and create lasting economic opportunities for indigenous partners and communities across the country. The Canadian wind, solar and energy storage industry is ready to help deliver that future. The opportunity is here. What Canada needs now is the policy certainty and investment environment to build it.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you, Ms. Bellissimo.

We'll now go to Ms. Patterson. You have the floor for five minutes.

Lorena Patterson President and Chief Executive Officer, WaterPower Canada

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, committee members.

I'm here today on behalf of WaterPower Canada, the national association that represents Canada's hydro power industry. Our members include public and private utilities, developers, manufacturers and engineering firms, and they represent more than 95% of Canada's installed hydro power capacity and operate over 600 facilities across the country.

As the committee considers Canada's electricity future, I'd like to leave you with a simple message: We cannot achieve our electricity, climate and economic goals without hydro power.

Hydro power already provides more than half Canada's electricity. It's clean, reliable, flexible and proven. It does much more than generating electricity; it provides the storage, balancing and grid stability services that allow other renewable resources such as wind and solar to operate efficiently. This synergy is fundamental to Canada's objective of doubling electricity infrastructure by 2050.

The challenge before us is significant. Estimates suggest that Canada will require between $1 trillion and $2 trillion of electricity investment in generation, transmission and storage infrastructure. Meeting this need will require a coordinated approach that mobilizes both public and private capital while maintaining affordability for Canadian households and businesses. Canada currently has 160,000 megawatts as its total capacity of electricity, including 83,000 megawatts of hydro. The recently signed MOU between Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and Hydro-Québec would add another 14,000 megawatts to the system.

If we were only relying on hydro power to meet the federal government's target of doubling the size of the grid, we would have to build more than 11 similarly sized projects. The scale of this build-out is enormous, and no single source of power will be sufficient to meet the objective, but including more hydro is essential. It's already included in $100 billion of planned projects, but our sector is challenged by multiple impediments to rolling out projects quickly. Our industry faces three key barriers to contributing to Canada's energy goals.

First, investors and utilities need greater confidence that future electricity demand will materialize. Utilities make investment decisions based on demonstrable long-term expectations of growth. If consumers and industries do not switch to electricity at the pace anticipated, large infrastructure investments may not proceed. If Canada expects significant electrification of transportation, buildings and industry, then federal public policy should provide consistent signals that the market supports the transition. Reducing uncertainty around future demand will help unlock the private and public capital needed to build major infrastructure projects.

Second, we need financing tools that recognize the unique nature of hydro power infrastructure. Large hydroelectric projects require substantial upfront investment and can take between 10 and 15 years to develop and build, but once in service, they operate for generations, often for a century or more. Traditional financing structures do not always reflect their intergenerational value. While smaller renewable projects often have adequate financing opportunities, large investment requirements, long development timelines, provincial borrowing constraints, ratepayer affordability concerns and competition for capital across the broader economy can all limit investment in hydro.

The federal government can play a critical role by providing low-interest, long-amortization loans; expanded loan guarantees; and financing mechanisms that reduce borrowing costs for projects that will benefit Canadians for generations. Otherwise, some of Canada's most important clean electricity projects could be disadvantaged despite their strategic importance.

Programs such as the clean electricity investment tax credit have the potential to become highly valuable tools, but eligibility timelines and program design should better align with large infrastructure projects that require longer development periods. This is why we've recommended extending it to 2040 or beyond.

We also recommend revisiting federal EIFEL rules, which can increase financing costs for large infrastructure projects and ultimately raise costs for ratepayers.

We also support expanding indigenous participation through enhanced indigenous loan guarantee programs and facilitating indigenous equity participation in major electricity projects.

Third, regulatory certainty is essential. There is increasing uncertainty around electricity export approvals, which are often essential to the business case for large hydro developments.

Also, we see progress is being made in legislating regulatory efficiency in some federal agencies, but compliance with the Fisheries Act still entails long approval timelines and complex permitting processes for our industry, leading to increased and unpredictable project costs and unnecessary risk. These costs and additional risk are an impediment to the Government of Canada's objective of doubling the available electricity on the national grid, because capital that would otherwise flow to new production must be deployed to meet regulatory requirements of the act on facilities that have already been operating for decades, if not over a century.

Mr. Chair, Canada has a tremendous advantage. We have abundant water resources, a world-class hydro power sector and deep expertise in building and operating clean electricity systems. With the right financing and policy framework, we can leverage those strengths to build the electricity system that Canada can rely on for generations to come.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you, Ms. Patterson.

Thanks to all of our witnesses for their testimony today.

We will now go to the rounds of questions and comments.

Ms. Anstey, we're going to start with you for six minutes.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Thank you, Chair. It's great to be back.

Mayor Boivin, I'd like to start with you.

I want to talk about a topic that has already come up in some of the opening statements, which is the importance of affordable electricity. Energy affordability is not just a household issue, of course. It's also an economic competitiveness issue.

Families and businesses are already facing rising costs. Hydro-Québec increased residential electricity rates by 3% this year, and business and industrial rates were increased by 3.8%. At the same time, major employers are dealing with tariffs and continued uncertainty in the U.S. market.

For communities like yours that are trying to attract investment, affordable and reliable electricity can make the difference between a company investing, expanding and creating jobs or taking that investment elsewhere. From your perspective as mayor, how important is maintaining affordable electricity for the businesses you're trying to retain and attract?

5:50 p.m.

Mayor of Saguenay, As an Individual

Luc Boivin

That's a good question. In Quebec, rates are governed by the Régie de l'énergie. That means I don't have the power to adjust energy rates as the mayor.

However, projects have passed through my hands, and those of my predecessors, requesting access to megawatts of power for large-scale projects. However, we didn't have the energy needed to develop certain industries in our region. Rest assured of one thing: As mayor, I will fight to ensure that energy is available for projects in the region. In Saguenay, we have the port of Grande-Anse, one of the largest industrial sites that is available and ready to receive major projects.

However, for that to happen, we need energy to meet the energy needs of projects that will create wealth for Canada. I hope that answers your question.