Official Languages Committee on Dec. 6th, 2006

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you very much.

As vice-chair, I will not abuse my time, even if I am in charge of keeping it. I am fair. However, I will come back to this later.

Mr. Murphy.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning everyone.

I am from Moncton, New Brunswick. I am an anglophone, but I am very aware of the circumstances faced by minorities, such as the Acadians.

I am also the deputy justice critic for the Liberal Party and a member of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

After Christmas, that committee will hear, as a witness, from the Minister of Justice, Mr. Toews, on the abolition of the Court Challenges Program.

A few witnesses today, as well as some yesterday in Edmonton and in British Columbia on Monday, said frankly and directly that they opposed this decision to cut this program. I think, after having heard from several witnesses here, that everyone agrees that this was not a good decision.

However, to help our Conservative friends, could I ask Mr. Dubé, Mr. Gauthier or perhaps Mr. Ferré if there is another solution to meet this need? We know that this program is an extremely important tool to maintain your linguistic rights.

For example, there is a process for complaints relating to human rights: the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal and various ombudsmen.

With regard to potential and likely solutions—any and all solutions are welcome—to help our Conservative friends, could you tell us whether there are good ways to replace this program?

[Michel Dubé]

That is a good question. I don't know whether I can suggest a solution. Perhaps my colleagues around the table can suggest something.

Cancelling this program has certainly sent a very negative message to the community. In our presentations, we alluded to the fact that we have often had to go through the courts here, in Saskatchewan, not only to establish our schools, but to do other things as well.

In Saskatchewan, a practical solution would be to ensure the support and cooperation of the provincial government to ensure that we would not always have to rely on such a program or use it.

We are working hard in this area. We have a fairly good relationship with the provincial government in certain areas. We also have a law association here, that is also working hard on this. However, we need to identify ways to ensure that there won't be any gaps in this area in the future.

My colleague wants to respond.

[Denis Desgagné]

To bring about social change, our governments must work together. Ideally, if all went well in the political area, we would not need the legislative branch. But who can ever say that everything is going smoothly in the political area?

Therefore, I think that the solution consists in bringing back the Court Challenges Program. There is no other solution. It does not consist in funding, for instance, the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française, on a national scale, or funding any other program whatsoever. I think that this is a matter of democracy and respect. The message that can—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Mr. Ferré would like to speak.

[Denis Ferré]

I would like to make a comment on that topic. Thank you.

Very often, the obstacle comes from the public servants, even before reaching the political level. Therefore, I think that it is essential that we raise the awareness of our public servants. As I am a public servant myself, I do not think that I am insulting anyone.

The first signs of reluctance come from the public servants, and this can even go further than mere reluctance. By applying the necessary pressure—as we have always had to—we have to press further on. At a certain point, we must refer to case law and jurisprudence. We must use those tools.

We must do more than just raise awareness. We must demand that our public servants understand the situation, and for those who have a hard time understanding, we must put the emphasis in the right place. We must do this, because up to now, not much has been done.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Ms. Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Good morning, everyone. My name is Sylvie Boucher and I am parliamentary secretary for Josée Verner, Minister for La Francophonie and Official Languages. I am a government member. This is my second trip with this committee. We started in the east and we went westward. This week, we heard complaints and we took note of them. You can be sure that we will pass them on. Personally, I am an eternal optimist because I deeply believe in the francophone cause.

My question is for you, Mr. Ferré. I see that you are restless in your chair and I think that you have many things to say. If you had any solutions, short and long term, to propose to our government—that has two representatives here today—to promote the vitality of francophone communities, what would they be? I want to take note of them.

[Denis Ferré]

This is a good question: it is a political issue.

Once again, let me say that the transmission of francophone culture depends on early childhood intervention. That is where culture is transmitted. We have no way of dealing with the low birth rate in our francophone communities, but we can, nevertheless, develop a welcoming society that our dear friends, the immigrants, are happy to live in. Yes, we must create structures to welcome them. If we do not do this, in another generation and a half, the battle will have been lost.

Early childhood—Immigration—Yes, we must always watch over public funds, but when there are so many obstacles between us and the results—The bureaucratic machinery is enormous. Responsibility is an important issue, I do not contest that, but please, take a look at the current government structures that force us to spend unreasonable amounts of energy just to get a tiny 13% of our budget.

Now we have early childhood, immigration, the issue of funding—I put this to you in 30 seconds, without much reflection.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, Mr. Sarny.

[Dominique Sarny]

Yes, inasmuch as it is done in a spirit of innovation. We must stay within a framework and we must always observe many criteria and performance indicators, especially from Heritage Canada. One of the performance indicators should encourage the institutions that are innovative. We have been innovative in Saskatchewan, and this should be mentioned. As the Franco-Saskatchewanian community director just said, the things we do here are not necessarily applicable elsewhere. We do things differently; we have been innovating in the sectors of immigration and early childhood, among others, and this must be taken into account.

I take this opportunity to add a comment about the French language. On the ground, especially at Regina University, which is mainly anglophone and has not had much of a tradition for welcoming francophones, French is not considered as a national or Canadian language.

We must convince our partners—because they are our partners and they are open-minded—that French is not Spanish or German; true, it is an international language, but it is first and foremost a Canadian language, a national language.

This is why, we ask our personnel, that must work in a very structured environment, to be highly committed to this Canadian language, this national language. We have a long way to go, and the match is not over. But I am very optimistic and positive, as you are. I think that it will work, inasmuch as we get support and there is a very clear understanding of what this means concretely to a person from the east or from Ottawa.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

And also from Quebec.

[Denis Desgagné]

Our governments must show leadership. No one seemed to notice, but the Official Languages Innovation Program was cut. Fourteen million dollars had been provided for federal councils to promote leadership pursuant to part IV, that deals with public communication and service delivery, and part VII, which deals with promoting French and English, and the Official Languages Act.

The Saskatchewan Regional Federal Council is the only council that still has a structure for coordinating official languages. People took up a collection to maintain this structure because they believe in it. However, we do not have the leadership and the resources that we need to implement the Action Plan for Official Languages and to ensure that the governments work together on this. It is really unfortunate.

We have often heard that the action plan was not cut. There was a sum of $14 million and last year, about $2 million were spent. We think that about $7 million or $8 million remain that have not been spent. We must take a leadership role for the future of our early childhood programs or other programs.

The cement for building this country is in the francophone communities in every region of Canada. If we are not allowed to act, we will continue a never-ending debate between nations, without really knowing where we are going. I think that this is where the government must take a leadership role.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you.

I do not necessarily want to defend public servants, but let me simply say that it is up to the government, elected by the people, to assume leadership.

I find it rather difficult to go back nine months in time and blame the public servants. The government has responsibilities because it was elected by the people. It has a vision and it should know how to build a country. We gave it this mandate for four years, although, these days, mandates only last a year and a half.

The government should assume leadership, and work together with francophone communities in every part of the country, be it with La Société des Acadiens du Nouveau-Brunswick, ACFO or l'Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise, which is your association.

In Timmins, the people told us that the funding had not been adjusted for the cost of living or for inflation. Organizations need money to do their work.

We mentioned the Court Challenges Program and early childhood, among other things. What role does your association play? How is it perceived? Do you feel that you need more tools?

[Michel Dubé]

You can be sure that we are short of tools.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Tell us about it.

[Michel Dubé]

I invite you to read our document, because I cannot present it to you in five minutes. Our funding was cut. We received a very contradictory message when the Court Challenges Program was abolished. We often feel—and perhaps this is the case in other provinces as well—that some kind of territorial bilingualism is being established, that bilingualism will only exist elsewhere, that it will only exist in Quebec, and that the francophonie will be limited to Quebec.

This is a very bad message for several reasons. Budgets were cut and moreover, a very direct message was sent to the Saskatchewan government, that has been somewhat reluctant in the past and with which we are now working to improve our relations. Our provincial government is wondering why it should act, given that we are not even supported by the federal government. As far as we are concerned, we want to work together with the provincial government to bring back these programs, because they meet the needs of the citizens of Saskatchewan.

L'Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise is an entity that coordinates all activities, by implementing an overall community development plan in collaboration with the associations' network. The associations that lost their funding also lost their means to do their work. Instead of making progress, we are stagnating or falling behind.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Let's make the effort of saying that there are two peoples and two official languages. You spoke of a national language. We have an action plan backed with funds amounting to $750 million. Now the government seems to contest any advancement made by the francophone community. Let us take for instance the Caron affair, the case of a lady in New Brunswick involving the RCMP, and which is now before the Supreme Court. They also tried to amalgamate my riding with a riding that was 70% anglophone; there is also the food inspectors' issue. All these things have been challenged.

The government is telling us that it wants us to develop and to find our place, but each time that we make a step ahead, it strikes us down and tells us that we are wrong.

Do you feel the same thing here?

[Wilfrid Denis]

Denis spoke about the leadership issue. Leadership is as important as funding for communities so that they can promote and defend their rights. We fail to understand why, when we go to court, the government is absent or it is with those who are challenging our presence.

Let us take, for example, the Northwest Territories. When we have the resources to hire one lawyer to defend the rights of the Franco-People of the North and we have to face a bevy of lawyers representing the Northwest Territories and federal government agencies and so forth, I find this unjust. There's something basically wrong with this vision of Canada that they are trying to build.

As Denis said, the cement with which tomorrow's Canada will be built is made of respect for the rights of minority francophones, of first nations peoples and multiculturalism. Without leadership, it will be difficult to maintain the momentum and commitment of the communities. Each time that we stand up for our rights, the federal government—the very government that is responsible for ensuring linguistic duality in the entire country—instead of unequivocally supporting us, is challenging our rights.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Mr. Dubé.

[Michel Dubé]

Without visible federal leadership, our communities will have a difficult time in dealing with the provincial government.

Let us take, for instance, school governance. The Saskatchewan government did not want to hear about the school governance program, but we implemented it nonetheless. The Saskatchewan government was more or less forced to do it and now it thinks that it is a good thing and useful for the community. It took funds to implement the school governance project.

When we are able to implement permanent programs and the ordinary citizens of Saskatchewan realize that these programs are not a threat to them, and on the contrary, that they are a contribution to the community's well-being, they accept them. However, before gaining the acceptance of social changes that might take 20 years, we need resources. I think that we must also show leadership.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Mr. Simard, it is your turn.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Sarny, you made a very interesting comment when you said that French is not a national language or a Canadian language. This might be at the root of the problem. Programs like the Action Plan for Official Languages give communities tools for building a national language, but it is up to the Parliament to ensure the results. I find this very interesting. Our committee could recommend that we make Canadians more aware of this language. This has given me food for thought and I appreciate this comment very much.

That being said, the Action Plan for Official Languages allocated $360 million to education. We realized that the health sector was working well and we invested very little in it, but it was an amazing success. Of course, we must invest more in immigration; we have only set up basic structures so far.

In spite of all that, I still find it very difficult to see whether the plan succeeded in the education sector. Did we get our 360 million dollars' worth? Was this money well spent? Do you know? Can you answer this question?

[Denis Ferré]

I can say right away that the contribution we get through the bilateral agreements has always amounted to 13 or 20% of our budget. Was this a great help to us? Yes, absolutely, but this money is used for operations; it is not an added value. This is a problem.

Because of our demographics, our scattered population, etc., operational costs are above average. Now this money helped us to survive, and, I believe, to provide first rate education to our youth. We could not have implemented all the enhancements in our schools, for early childhood, for instance, without these programs. There would have been no junior kindergartens for three- and four-year-olds but now there is one in every school.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

If I understand correctly, a large part of the investment was made for schools and for young students in immersion and for French as a second language, for instance. Is it yielding any results? Perhaps you are not able to answer this question.