Official Languages Committee on Feb. 1st, 2007

[A voice]

There are all kinds of reasons.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Do you feel, then, that the federal government has a role to play?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Excuse me, Mr. Godin, but—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Is it that fast? I think you're on fast time. You must be on Ottawa time, not New Brunswick time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

You know, when you're asking interesting questions, it really runs by quickly.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay, well, give me another five minutes, then?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Okay. We're going to continue with—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We all agree?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

We're going to continue with Mr. Simard.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Perreault, I can tell you that you've made me think this morning. In fact, our committee recently toured across the country to explore somewhat the vitality of the communities.

You are right: the Dion Plan mainly targeted French as a second language. The $750 million, $360 million of which was allocated to immersion programs, has produced good results. We admit that people from British Columbia are prepared to spend the night on the sidewalk to register their children in immersion. But that doesn't mean that the next Dion Plan or any other plan might not target Francophone communities to a greater degree.

During our trip, we observed that, when the community education centres are given the necessary tools, they work; they have their own schools. In French-speaking Manitoba, when they build a French-language school, it's full to overflowing in two or three years. When they're given the tools and infrastructures, it works extremely well.

I think we should look at the possibility of adopting a strategy for the Francophone community concerning French. That's something interesting.

Could you comment on that?

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

Only 9% of English-speaking Canadians are bilingual. That's what the figures show. In French-speaking Canada, including Quebec, the rate is 45%. You can clearly see that the bilingualism policy has much more anglicizing effects on Francophones, which the statistics moreover show, since those effects go as far as assimilation, whereas it has virtually no effect on the Anglophone community.

The request we're making that the federal government adopt a language policy based on the promotion of French is consistent with your remarks, but it's mainly targeted at Canada outside Quebec, so that an exclusionary unilingualism is not practised there that does not recognize our situation, but focuses on learning the other reality, which is ours. That's how the bilingualism policy, together with a French promotion policy, could produce results.

Going back to Mr. Chong's question on the Treasury Board statistics, there are only 6,490 designated unilingual French positions in the federal public service across Canada, compared to 484,200 designated unilingual English positions. One French position for 11 English positions, whereas Anglophones—

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Mr. Perreault, could you get back to my question, please?

I also want to talk to you briefly about the cultural and demographic situation of the communities outside Quebec. Back home in Manitoba, 80% of couples are exogamous. This is increasingly the situation. Our Francophones are marrying Anglophones. We're also talking about literacy and all kinds of interesting challenges that we're facing. So this isn't as simple as that.

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

Mr. Simard, I'll respond to your judicious comment by saying that what we observe in Canada outside Quebec is also being observed among Francophones in Quebec. Linguistic dominance in exogamous couples always, or nearly always, works in favour of... That's why we're telling the government that there's another issue and that it must therefore establish a genuine policy based on the promotion of French in both languages in a North American context. In the Canadian context, there's one minority language that requires more resources.

In Quebec, the illiteracy that we're talking about is much higher among Francophones. When Mr. Godin talks about assisting the Anglophone community in addressing illiteracy, I entirely agree with him. But let's not forget: in Quebec, there's much illiteracy among Francophones. Imagine then what it is outside Quebec.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Mr. Perreault.

We'll continue with Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. MacLeod. You're a teacher; I am as well. You're a university professor, isn't that correct?

[Roderick MacLeod]

I teach at McGill University.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Teaching is a field that concerns me very much. I taught high school among the Métis and Fransaskois in the west and among the Franco-Ontarians and Quebeckers. In the west, we had to fight to get our schools, as I mentioned last Tuesday. Governments denied us for 64 years, but we ultimately got them. Now we're way behind.

I'm going to ask you a simple question. If a Canadian settles in Quebec with school-aged children, can he, anywhere in the province, enroll them in a school where English is the first language? Are there places where that's impossible because there are no English-language schools?

[Roderick MacLeod]

No.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I'm going to give you an example. In Saskatchewan, there are nine areas. Those who don't live in one of those areas may not attend a French-language school. That's the situation. And yet they say that schools management is already underway.

I understand what you're doing. You're protecting your community. There are problems, but really when you look at the Francophone community outside Quebec, you realize that it's absolutely not the same thing: these are two different worlds. The Canadian government closes its eyes to that, on the ground that that's a provincial jurisdiction.

It becomes hard to find solutions because we don't have any leadership. These provinces aren't penalized. Imagine if Quebec refused to grant English-language schools to Anglophones, as French-language schools were denied to Francophones in Saskatchewan. They'd empty Afghanistan and send all the troops to Quebec. And yet, in the case of Saskatchewan, no one ways a word. My example may be appropriate, but I hope that doesn't occur.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We'd close the bars.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

That's another story, my friend.

Since this is the last round, I'd like to talk about a group from back home called Le Tremplin. It receives $14,000 a year to do literacy work. I visited that group. All the teachers work on a volunteer basis. In fact, they are retired teachers. This is in Quebec, in Gatineau, in the basement of Saint-Jean-Marie-Vianney Church. Some Franco-Ontarian students even attend the place because this service still is not available where they live. The people there are of all ages; it's surprising. There are about 12 people on average.

I'd like to ask each of you your opinion about what should absolutely be included in the report on the fight against illiteracy. You mentioned a national program, but are there more specific solutions that we should consider?

[Ilze Epners]

I must honestly say that we're not lacking the manpower, the will or the expertise. We're lacking money.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

So it's a matter of political will.

Earlier one colleague said he was completely surprised to learn that these things happened in our country. However, this is a situation that exists and that we have to deal with. We find it across Canada, and the anti-illiteracy groups have reasons for seeking aid.

Mr. Perreault, your three recommendations concern the issue of numbers, reparations and the accent that should be placed on francization rather than bilingualism.

There are three, perhaps four minutes left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Perhaps one.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I'm going to let Mr. Perreault tell us the key recommendations that should be included in the report.