Official Languages Committee on June 12th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Harvey, for raising a point of order.

I think this is a reminder and I would draw it to the attention of the members and the witness. We should limit the discussion to the program itself. Thank you.

Mr. Nadeau.

[Lise Routhier-Boudreau]

Thank you.

At the summit, some of the 750 participants there were people who did not belong to organizations. Quite a few people were participating on an individual basis. The progress made by the francophone world in recent years have helped francophone communities to flourish and develop. Accomplishments made every field of endeavour were discussed. Of course, the headway made due to the Court Challenges Program was strongly emphasized. It helped us to set benchmarks and to continue making substantial progress as a minority.

As far as I am concerned, I want to add that the francophonie does not want to be perceived in the least as a group that is looking for handouts. It wants to live fully in French in a country that recognizes the role played by francophones and to contribute fully as citizens to the country's advancement. In demographic terms, in other words, because of our numbers, we clearly need additional support if we want to achieve equality with regard to rights and services.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Foulem, your organization represents all of the Acadie. What feedback did you get from member organizations in your region regarding the elimination of the Court Challenges Program?

[Ghislaine Foulem]

As you know, 25% of all francophones living in a minority community in Canada are in New Brunswick. The 32 provincial organizations that we represent—and there are many more at the regional and local levels—were appalled when they heard the announcement.

As I said, as regards democracy, it gave us an opportunity to defend our rights when government did not interpret legislation in the same way as our community did. As someone said earlier, the law evolves and laws must also evolve. What was good in 1931 may no longer be good in 2007.

Therefore, we must move the legislation forward and it is crucial to have this program or some other program that would give us the same resources to defend our position in court when discussion, dialogue and diplomacy have failed to allow us to reach an agreement with the government.

Now, what can we do when things do not work out? We take our case to court, but, as you know, that is very expensive. Therefore, I think this is undemocratic and unfair for communities that do not have the resources or the money to take their cases to court, whereas the government goes to court at taxpayers' expense. Everyone should have an equal chance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Foulem.

The bell began to ring while you were giving your answer. According to my information, it will last for 30 minutes. There are two members left in the third round of questions. Do committee members want to adjourn, or should we let the two speakers conclude before adjourning, given that we are right next door to the House? Would you prefer to go ahead and finish the round of questions?

[Some members]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Excellent.

Now, Mr. Harvey, you have five minutes.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

The Court Challenges Program was created to fund court cases that can promote the equality rights and language rights guaranteed by the Canadian Constitution and Charter.

A case becomes a test case if it has to do with an issue that has not been taken to court. Such cases must help minority official language communities in Canada to protect their language rights.

According to the agreement with Heritage Canada, the Court Challenges Program cannot be used to fund challenges of the laws, policies or practices of the provinces or territories, cases that raise issues that have already been funded by the Court Challenges Program or that are before the courts or complaints regarding the Official Languages Act.

Ms. Foulem, there are three other ways to fund lawsuits in order to protect one's rights, namely provincial or territorial legal aid, the Canadian Human Rights Commission and the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. Apart from the Court Challenges Program, have you used any of those programs or do you know whether they have been used for covering legal costs?

[Ghislaine Foulem]

I know that we have called upon the Official Languages Commissioner to be a witness in cases that we have brought before the courts. In most cases, to pay for preliminary research and all the other expenses of taking cases to court, the only program that met our needs was the Court Challenges Program. If the other programs had met our needs, we would certainly have used them if we needed to.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

If I understand correctly, you are not necessarily familiar with the other three programs that I mentioned for covering your court costs in challenges involving minority rights in your province or with the organizations with which you work.

[Ghislaine Foulem]

To my knowledge, legal aid is not necessarily meant for defending language rights. As I said, we have already called upon the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. The commissioner has the power to take cases to court. However, the Court Challenges Program was the one we used because it was the one that met the needs of our cases.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Ms. Routhier-Boudreau, apart from the Court Challenges Program, have you ever used one of the three programs that I just mentioned? Did you work only with the Court Challenges Program?

[Lise Routhier-Boudreau]

To my knowledge, the Court Challenges Program was the only one that could help us with the kind of cases that we had. Regarding the office of the commissioner, according to our information, although we can file complaints, we have no access to funding from the office to pay for legal expenses.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

How much time do we have left, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have one minute.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

This means that you could file complaints with the office of the commissioner, but you will not be in a position to manage the financial side of the lawsuits. Am I right?

[Lise Routhier-Boudreau]

We would manage the financial side at all.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Ms. Martin-Laforge, could you answer the same question?

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

In my opinion, the three ways of lodging complaints are exactly that: three different ways of proceeding depending on the case, the scope of the complaint and what we want to obtain. In Quebec, the Court Challenges Program was the one that we needed when we used it. The other alternatives were not suitable for bringing our cases to court.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Very well, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

Mr. Godin, you will be the last member to have the floor.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Are we counting time according to Rogers or according to Bell? If it is the former, I have five minutes left, and if it is the latter, I have no time left.

My question is addressed to Ms. Routhier-Boudreau. I am referring to an article in Le Droit dated June 5, 2007 that says that half of the positions in the federal public service are unilingual English. It also states that bilingual positions account for around 40%, whereas unilingual francophone positions are decreasing in number and represent only 4% of the entire number of positions. These are the facts.

Once again, is it not disturbing to see that the Conservative government wants to abolish the Court Challenges Program, which helps minorities? I do not like to use the term "minorities" because we should be equal and we should not even have to raise the issue, but do you agree with me that this is another setback for minorities, one from which it will be difficult to recover?

[Lise Routhier-Boudreau]

In our opinion, the repercussions of the elimination of the Court Challenges Program are extremely worrying, I would even say alarming, as regards helping francophone communities advance their rights. We clearly need tangible support from the various levels of government for actions that foster respect for minorities, which is a source of pride for Canada. It is important for a government to show that it supports all aspects of its minorities, and the francophonie is certainly an aspect that should be promoted and preserved.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That applies just as much to francophones living outside Quebec as it does to anglophones living in Quebec.

[Lise Routhier-Boudreau]

It applies to all of these minorities.