Official Languages Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

That is on page 17 of the French version of the report and on page 16, point 23, of the English version. Thank you.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. I don't want to cut into the time allowed to my colleagues, but a moment ago you mentioned some items in the report, which is a confidential draft that we will be dealing with in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

That is true, yes.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

A moment ago, you said that a particular recommendation appeared on a particular page. Again, Mr. Chair...

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

That's true. Thank you, Mr. D'Amours, for reminding me that it is a confidential document. We are not in camera. Thank you, and I will take that to heart.

We will now go to a representative of the Conservative government.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you for coming here today. We are going to talk strictly about the Action Plan for the Official Languages, but first, in the "blues" I have in front of me, I read that last week, at a public meeting, Jean-Claude D'Amours put a very good question to Michèle Demers of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada, who replied as follows:

So much ground has been lost in the area of language training that it seems to have fallen off the radar of the federal public service. Nobody is talking about it anymore. Despite how much we heard about it in 2003, 2004, 2005 and even 2006, all we hear now is complete frustration from people who say there is no language training at the school anymore. Responsibility for doing language training has been delegated to the departments, but they have not been given any budget for doing the job. They have to take operating budgets that are already tight, that are in fact being cut year after year, and try to provide an hour here and there. That does not make for bilingual people.

Mr. D'Amours added: “So these are fine words, but nothing concrete is being done.”

And Ms. Demers replied: “Absolutely.”

Do you agree with that statement? That is someone on the inside, who said that what you are doing is... I won't say the word, but it's as simple as that. So do you agree with that statement, coming from a representative of the Professional Institute of the Public Service? According to the document you presented this morning, you are an optimist by nature. On the other hand, that is not what Ms. Demers seemed to be saying, and she is part of the system. Who's right: her or you?

I have been sitting in the House for barely two years and I want to know where I'm going. As I see it, the Public Service Commission is the employer. On the other side is the union. Is that a union response, or a genuine response?

[Donald Lemaire]

I think it would be unwise for me to express a personal opinion about the validity of what Ms. Demers said. On the other hand, I can say, as you noted a few minutes ago, that all responsibility for language has been transferred. The Commission no longer has any responsibility, and as part of that transfer, we transferred $25 million to the school for language training.

So we no longer have any actual role in language training. Like any other department, we arrange for our employees to receive training, but we have no government-wide responsibility to monitor this issue.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You were responsible during part of the period of the Action Plan. This lady was talking about the entire Action Plan. She is talking about the same years as we are talking about, when you were the employer. The transfers happened after that.

She said that during the time when you were the employer, you were not able to do anything, that there was frustration, pure and simple, and there was no bilingualism. Is that true or false? I wasn't there; you were.

[Donald Lemaire]

Unfortunately, I am not able to answer your question. I personally was not there. Ms. Demers is talking about... April 2006, that's...

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

She was talking about 2003, 2004, 2005 and even 2006. She was talking about the period when you were there. She said that it was... Well, I won't use the word that fits, but that's what she said, in her own words.

[Donald Lemaire]

I respect Ms. Demers' opinion, but I don't share it.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You don't agree with it.

[Donald Lemaire]

That's right.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I have one final question. Regarding the delivery of services in both languages, what improvement would you see? We have seen that your powers are in fact limited, but what would you see, apart from saying you are going to continue, which we understand: there is $800 million at stake. But apart from saying that we should continue, what would you see as improving the plan, which you administered for two or three years?

[Donald Lemaire]

I am not familiar with the other components of the Action Plan that were transferred when the new Act was put in place. On the question of the role of the Public Service Commission, I think we should continue promoting bilingualism and raising the public's awareness of its importance and of learning as early as possible. So any initiative that would enable us to keep going in that direction would be very welcome, and we would be happy to be involved in that effort.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

We will now continue with Mr. Raymond Gravel.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To answer Mr. Petit, Ms. Demers said that it seemed to get worse starting in 2006, which corresponds to when the Conservatives came to power. That's bizarre.

I wanted to ask you a question about unilingualism, francophone and anglophone. Is it easier for a unilingual anglophone to get hired in the public service than for a unilingual francophone? For example, according to the survey of Montreal businesses that was published in Le Journal de Montréal, anglophones who apply for a job are assured that if they are able to say "hello" and "how are you", francophones will be happy. Is that how it is in the public service too? Are anglophones truly bilingual or do they just know how to say a few words in French when they are hired?

[Donald Lemaire]

Francophone or anglophone, candidates must meet the requirements of the language profile for the position. When a position is defined as bilingual, the proficiency level in the second language is the same, whether for a francophone or an anglophone.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Are more unilingual anglophones hired? Of course, because there are more anglophones than francophones in Canada. But is it easier for a unilingual anglophone to get hired than for a unilingual francophone?

[Donald Lemaire]

The question is not whether it is easier or harder. There are more unilingual anglophone positions. Based on the law of large numbers, we can expect that there will be more English first language positions available. So I don't believe that it would be easier or harder for either of the two groups.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Okay.

For senior officials, what rules have to be followed to become bilingual, as compared to the rules for a lower level employee? Are they the same rules?

[Edward Poznanski]

There is a general rule now for bilingual positions: we staff the positions on an imperative basis. In some circumstances, however, with the approval of senior management, we can staff positions on a non-imperative basis.

For the management group, there are special rules. For example, bilingual assistant deputy minister positions have to be staffed on an imperative basis, regardless of the department. For director general positions, positions classified as EX-3 and EX-2, the general rule is that we staff these positions on an imperative basis if they are in the public service and are located in a bilingual region. The only way we can staff a position in the management group on a non-imperative basis is if the deputy minister approves it. I would note in passing that positions classified as EX-2 and EX-3 are open to the public. At the EX-1 level, that is, the entry level to the management group, the general rule is that the positions are staffed on an imperative basis. However, if the deputy minister approves it, we can staff those positions on a non-imperative basis.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Why are there unilingual English deputy ministers?

[Donald Lemaire]

Deputy minister positions do not come under the Public Service Employment Act. We couldn't say why they are unilingual.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

It's the same thing for ambassadors. Some Canadian ambassadors in the world are unilingual anglophones.