Official Languages Committee on April 2nd, 2009

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Pardon me for interrupting you, but I only have five minutes and I really want to know exactly what we are talking about. Is this the first program? You mentioned another one which is very important in the context of our study. Through this program, you want to try and increase the number of students who will enter the public service. How does that work?

[Sylvie Lauzon]

With many of our programs, University of Ottawa students who graduate subsequently enter the public service. Our goal is to increase the number of bilingual graduates, in order to provide the public service with new employees who are already bilingual. Those students would be part of the immersion system—in other words, they would be in these programs.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

But that is only a proposal for the time being; it has not yet been implemented.

[Sylvie Lauzon]

No, but our immersion system is already in operation. In addition, some of our programs require that students be bilingual—the environmental studies program, for one. We would like that to apply to a whole list of programs, so that being bilingual on graduation would really provide added value for students.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

That is excellent. I think it will certainly encourage our young people to learn the language so as to be ready to enter the public service.

[Sylvie Lauzon]

Yes, exactly.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

You also talked about money, and I am interested in hearing more. You referred to a shortfall of some $13 million. How did you arrive at that figure? What is the cost of your proposal? Have you made an application under the Roadmap for Linguistic Duality in Canada, as a means of enhancing your funding?

[Sylvie Lauzon]

You have touched on a number of issues. By stretching our resources, we are able to provide our current programs and services. However, because we do not want to cut them, we have to withdraw other services.

As regards our shortfall, we need a little more than $40 million in order to provide what we would like to provide—that is, fully bilingual programs and services.

What was your last question?

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

In terms of your new programs, have you made an application under the Roadmap?

[Sylvie Lauzon]

We have submitted our plan for the next five years to the government of Ontario, and this plan is intended to provide better access to students while favouring the retention of students pursuing their university studies in French. We submitted that application along with all the other Francophone and bilingual universities in Ontario. Together, these institutions form what is known as the Consortium des universités de la francophonie ontarienne. We are part of a group of seven universities that has made that request of the government. We are awaiting the results and are anxious to know how the funds to be allocated under the Canada-Ontario Agreement on French-Language Services will be paid out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Glover.

We will now begin our second round. In the meantime, our clerk will be distributing the schedule of our upcoming meetings with witnesses to all committee members. We could try to reserve some time to discuss this at our next meeting. Just to remind you of the purpose of the study, it was decided that about eight or ten meetings would be held to debate the topic of interest to us this morning. The key issue is whether the Canadian university system is preparing students adequately to meet the requirements of the labour market, and particularly the language needs of the largest Canadian employer, which is the federal public service. I would invite our witnesses to keep that in mind when answering questions, and committee members are also encouraged to ask their questions on that basis. We have organizations appearing today that focus their university research on that very issue. For example, in terms of human resources, some of your programs have that specific orientation.

Ms. Lauzon, your university is a Canadian leader in that field. Do you feel that your university and the system as a whole are properly preparing young people to respond to the needs of the labour market and the public service in terms of bilingualism? We know that the public service often has to hire young graduates and train them on the job. However, when you hire an engineer, there is no need to give him a course in thermodynamics. That is the basic issue. How can we improve the situation? What recommendations can you make to the committee in that regard?

[Sylvie Lauzon]

I think it is important to point out that universities in Canada do not have the same approach to, or perspective on, language training—far from it. For example, universities that are part of the Canadian Francophonie—in other words, institutions outside Quebec—are in a minority environment, and as a result, are all dealing with populations that are very engaged in terms of bilingualism.

I cannot speak for all universities, but the University of Ottawa is very aware of this very particular situation. We provide a whole range of programs that allow those students who are interested—we do not force anything on anyone—to perfect their knowledge of or learn the other official language. We offer second-language courses to both Francophones and Anglophones. We have second-language proficiency tests. Thus, at the end of the course, if they so desire, students may ask to have their level of bilingualism or proficiency in the other official language assessed.

We also provide language support and mentoring. For example, a student who registers for a course that is taught in French or in English, but does not fully master that official language, can avail himself of the services of a tutor who will take the course with him and review the course content with him in that official language. Tutors will discuss the course content with students and ask them questions. These are what are known as language mentoring courses. They are given by language teachers who explore in greater depth the content presented in class, in a course taught in a language that the student does not fully master. So, that is what language mentoring is all about, and it is available in both languages. In fact, we offer incentives. We may also offer the option of not receiving a numerical mark at the end of the course, so that the student's average will not drop. We offer the same kind of language mentoring or support to university teachers who have to teach their course in their second language.

So, a whole range of measures are in place to foster language learning. And it is possible for students, since most of our courses are offered in both French and English. Therefore, students can register in a French-language or English-language program, but also take many of their courses in the other language.

There is also the matter of proximity and the environment. It is an important point that I would not want to forget to mention. We have access to both films and theatre in each of the official languages, for example. Because learning does not only occur in the classroom. Research clearly shows that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Ms. Lauzon.

Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You see the kind of flexibility you have with us on this side of the table, since we do not demand that you go and sit—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

This is the best committee.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Maybe everyone will finally understand that today.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here. My questions will mainly be addressed to Ms. Lauzon or Mr. Clément.

If I understood you correctly, Ms. Lauzon, you are facing a funding shortfall of $13 million that you will have to take from somewhere else. You said that you need an additional $13 million, is that correct?

[Sylvie Lauzon]

Yes.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

That brings the total amount of money that you require to meet your needs to a little more than $40 million.

Also, you talked a lot about the public service. I am from a rural area of New Brunswick. Students from back home are studying at the University of Ottawa. However, students do not necessarily always want to enter the public service. At the same time, you seem to focus a great deal on the public service.

Do you also focus on other areas of study, or do you direct your efforts only towards supplying the public service, given that the University of Ottawa is at the very heart of Canada's public service?

[Sylvie Lauzon]

Our goal is not just to train people who will then enter the public service. However, because of our geographic location—we are only a few minutes away from here—many of our students are interested in the public service, in all the different disciplines. We very often think of public administration or political science studies as being more directly related to the public service, but a lot of people studying communications and even health disciplines are interested in the public service. In any case, there is never any mention made of this in our programs or our courses. It is really open to everyone and there are openings in every area.

Just to give you an example, we have a coop education program whereby students can do an internship, and the public service remains the largest supplier of coop job placements. So, that is certainly one of the options, but it is not the only one.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

It is because of the region that you serve.

[Sylvie Lauzon]

Yes, exactly.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Let's move now to the subject of our study, which is federal government support for post-secondary institutions. You said earlier that providing bilingual courses or training results in additional costs, compared to training in one language only. You talked about a shortfall of approximately $13 million.

You also mentioned an immersion program. Would it be easier and less costly for you if some steps in the process were completed earlier, so that when the student arrives at university, he already has an ability to express himself in the other language—his second language—more easily. There would be less of a burden if that were the case—in other words, if the federal government focussed its efforts on teaching the second language before students enter university, so that when they get there, they would already have completed the first step? Would that be a less complicated and costly system, as far as you are concerned?

[Sylvie Lauzon]

As regards that data, that is more Mr. Clément's area of expertise than it is mine. I can tell you that we do have students who have come to us from immersion schools, but they are not the only ones to attend our institution. Even between immersion schools, there are wide variations. Some immersion schools are in communities where there is very little exposure to French outside the classroom. As a result, those students are less able to master their second language, and when they arrive at university, they require a little more support than students who have attended immersion schools in areas where they are exposed to the other official language. That makes a huge difference. In terms of what can be done before, that is more Mr. Clément's area of expertise.

[Richard Clément]

You are absolutely right. If students were better trained in their second language by the time they arrive at university, it would be easier for us to integrate them into our own immersion system. There is no doubt that they can be better trained. However, if it were decided that language training would no longer be offered at the post-secondary level, that everything had to happen at the primary and secondary levels—we would have a problem, because students arriving at university—we encountered this problem ourselves, and that is the reason why we created our immersion program—would no longer be using their second language and, within the space of a year, would lose their ability to speak that language. It would probably happen even faster than that. Of course, students attending university are very conscious of the pressure on them to get good marks, and so on, because that directly affects their future. All of a sudden, they become very serious. So, at the university level, they must be given the means of preserving their language proficiency. Otherwise, it will be lost.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

A combination of the two might be helpful. Without eliminating post-secondary level programs, if more were done prior to students arriving at a post-secondary institution, it would make your job easier.