Official Languages Committee on April 2nd, 2009

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will be sharing my time with my colleague, Mr. Rodriguez.

I would like to clarify one thing. Mr. Petit, you did say earlier that it would be great if all deputy ministers were bilingual, did you not?

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Yes.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Well, that is exactly the line of questioning I would like to pursue. It is a little ironic to hear that. In fact, last week, Mr. Dulude, who had worked previously for Mr. Chong, said that all deputy ministers in the public service are bilingual. Now, though, you are saying that it would be great if they all were. It is difficult to know whom to believe.

Mr. Clément and Ms. Lauzon, we were talking about the public service and training a little earlier. I would like you to confirm one thing for me. You said that you receive students from immersion and that it can be difficult at times for them to continue to use their second language. If the person in charge of the organization is not proficient in the second language, then it is more difficult for the subordinate employee to retain second-language skills.

Like the people who came before you, you are doing the best you can to ensure that these individuals have a good understanding of the second language and a good level of proficiency. However, once someone has been hired, the problem is that the person in charge of the organization is not even able to speak that second language. What that means is that the student that you have trained will end up going back to his or her mother tongue. This kind of situation is far more likely to occur than the reverse.

[Richard Clément]

The loss I refer to with respect to students who stop using their second language after being in immersion in high school also applies to people who end up in a job where they cannot use their second language, or in an environment where that culture does not exist. Ultimately, the culture of the organization depends on the leadership of the person in charge of the department, who will impose that culture.

I fully agree with you. And that culture is a lot more intangible than simply saying to people they will take 40 hours of courses in French as a second language for six months. It requires other strategies and very definitely a political will to bring about change.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

As you say, it is a question of leadership.

[Richard Clément]

Yes.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

If you want to ensure that things are working well in the lower ranks, you have to set an example at the top. However, Mr. Petit seemed to be saying earlier that deputy ministers are not automatically bilingual. That means that leadership is lacking at that level in terms of ensuring that people in the lower ranks can continue to speak their second language.

[Richard Clément]

It is a question of both leadership and values. I don't know that it is easy to change the values of a well-entrenched group, but we can certainly try. It is also possible that language planning skills are not part of the training given senior officials. For example, if you are going to ask deputy ministers to ensure that their department reflects the Canadian duality, they have to know how to go about doing that. That is something they can learn. We are starting to provide that kind of training.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

In that connection, do you have the impression that federal deputy ministers are interested in receiving that kind of training or that they have to be asked to take it? Does it seem to be something that occurs regularly?

[Richard Clément]

I have no evidence that it is, because I have not conducted any research in that particular area, nor have I interviewed deputy ministers.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Ms. Fortier, you are shaking your head. Do you think the answer to that is no?

[Dr. Suzanne Fortier]

We have not studied it. All I can say is that the deputy ministers we work with in areas of interest to NSERC can generally carry on a conversation in both languages.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You said “generally”.

[Dr. Suzanne Fortier]

Yes, at NSERC, we tend to switch from one language to the other, often without realizing it, because our organization is truly bilingual. To my knowledge, the deputy ministers we work with can also switch between French and English without a problem.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

It is not necessarily automatic. As Mr. Clement was saying—

[Dr. Suzanne Fortier]

The deputy ministers that I work with are bilingual. That is all I can tell you.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Chairman, I realize that there are people opposite who have questions and that my time is up. But, I really do not understand. Some people are saying they are bilingual; other are saying they are not all bilingual, and some people on the same side of the table are telling us they are all bilingual. Perhaps we should get them all in here and give them a test, to find out what the reality is.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. D'Amours.

Mr. Chong, you have the floor.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I believe that all deputy ministers are bilingual. They certainly were when I was working with them during my time.

This study that we're undertaking here today is to better understand the root causes why French is on the decline in Canada, both in and outside Quebec. So I think your testimony has been useful. I think the other reason why we're undertaking this study is to better understand what we can do to arrest this decline.

According to the 2006 census, there are nearly as many Canadians with a non-official language as their mother tongue as there are francophones in this country. I have no doubt that in the subsequent census in 2011, we'll see for the first time in Canadian history the number of francophones exceeded by the number of Canadians with a non-official language.

Clearly there are big demographic changes going on in our country. In fact, the number of people with Chinese as their first language now exceeds the number of francophones in Ontario, Alberta, and British Columbia. In fact, in Quebec, the number of people who speak French at home as their first language has declined from about 83% in the 2001 census to 82% in the 2006 census. So even in Quebec, the French language is under pressure.

The rate of bilingualism of anglophones outside of Quebec is declining among young people especially—and this is the worrisome statistic. This is one of the reasons why we're focusing in this study on the educational aspects of language policy. We know from StatsCan that the number of bilingual high school students outside Quebec has declined in the last number of years, from about—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Pardon me for interrupting, Mr. Chong.

I am having trouble hearing the questions and answers because there are people chatting among themselves. I would ask those who would like to chat to please leave the room so that we can all concentrate on the subject at hand. Thank you.

Mr. Chong, please proceed.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

StatsCan reports that from 1996 to 2006, the number of bilingual high school students in Canada has declined from about 16% to 13%. These numbers are disappointing, especially in light of the fact that in 2003 the Government of Canada came forward with an action plan on official languages to try to deal with this. It had an ambitious target of doubling the number of bilingual students in this country by 2013. By all reports at this juncture, it appears that we're nowhere near meeting those targets. So these are worrisome trends.

We've heard from witnesses at previous meetings that second-language requirements for admission to Canadian universities have declined over recent decades, and that second-language requirements for graduation from undergraduate programs in Canada have also declined in that time. It's interesting.

I'd like to hear from the University of Ottawa, because it is interesting to hear in your testimony that you may be strengthening some of the graduation requirements with respect to second languages, as part of the changes to undergraduate requirements you're making. Perhaps you can tell the committee exactly what you're looking at doing, and perhaps tell us if any other universities are considering doing similar things.

[Sylvie Lauzon]

I believe the statistics you refer to affect us. We would like to see how that trend could be reversed. A number of actions have to be taken at several different levels. To begin with, we want to establish very close links with primary and secondary schools, in order to show them that it is possible to continue to study in French at university. In minority language families, children are often told they should study in English to be sure they will secure a job afterwards. But we tell them they should continue to study in French, in order to retain their language proficiency. Also, they will then be bilingual when they complete their education.

We do not impose language requirements on most of our students, except in those programs where bilingualism is mandatory. And we would like there to be more of these programs. At the present time, we are asking each of the faculties to prepare a list of all the programs where being bilingual, when you complete the program, provides real value added for students. We will be looking at what can be done to foster increased bilingualism among our students.

In 2000, a study showed that 51% of our students were already bilingual. That is probably the highest percentage of all the universities in Canada. So, we are ahead of the others, but we would also like to see bilingualism increased, without it being imposed. As a result, we are introducing incentives, so that students see that it is to their benefit—value added—and therefore decide to maintain or improve their proficiency in the other official language.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

By the way, I would like to thank Mr. Gaffield for offering to send us the titles of these studies. I believe they will make an important contribution to the committee's work.

Mr. Clément, I taught in French schools in Saskatchewan. When the children were starting school, they were already bilingual. Here I am referring to Saskatoon, which is clearly a very Anglophone environment.

One of the problems we had at school was that, after Grade 8, the parents—Franco-Saskatchewanians, old stock Franco-Manitobans or Quebeckers whose language and culture were French—would decide to send their children to an immersion school or even an English school because French was not enough to ensure that they could earn a living. That is part of the mindset, and it is very sad and very difficult for teachers to accept the idea that, having fought for these schools and having finally secured them, young people would not remain in the system. When that happens, we lose these young people. It is a real shame, and it simply is not true that if they go into immersion, they will remain Francophone, particularly since they are in a very Anglophone environment.

When you conduct studies with a view to finding ways of keeping young people interested in pursuing their education in French as a first language, do you find there are old stock Francophones who went to English school, that you consider to be Anglophones, and who learn their second language when they are admitted to your programs? Do you look at their educational path when you are looking at admission?

[Richard Clément]

Admission—