Evidence of meeting #15 for Official Languages in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Perhaps we could continue our work in Spanish a little later, for those interested in doing so.
Mr. Nadeau.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Thank you, Mr. Blaney.
I would like to conclude the discussion we started earlier, Mr. Brennick. It was most interesting. You send in information to distinguish between students whose mother tongue and spoken language are French, and those for whom French is a second language. In the first case, students go to a school where the language and culture are French, and those in the second group go to immersion. Do you send this information to school boards or school divisions? That is really where the decisions are made.
President, National Board of Directors, Canadian Parents for French
In my experience, this information is shared by the school boards. I can only speak from my personal experience in Nova Scotia.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
For some time now, Ms. Faitelson-Weiser, the committee has been discussing an interesting issue. We would like to know why post-secondary institutions cannot train more graduates who can speak French and English. Among other things, this would help the federal public service provide service in English or French to citizens of this country. The universities have been singled out. Perhaps I should not say that, but we have looked at what the universities are doing. As Mr. Brennick just said, the school boards and the departments of education are also very much involved in this.
Do you not think it would be preferable for universities—and I do want to choose my words carefully here—to have their students improve their proficiency in their second language, French, by studying in a university where French is the first language, such as Laval University, the Université du Québec en Outaouais, all the universities in the Université du Québec's network, and also the Université de Moncton? In that way, students would speak French in all their courses, and would experience genuine immersion both on campus and off, in the community where they are living.
Do you not think that this is where the focus should be, on French-language universities in French-speaking communities, so that anglophones will be able to work in French once they graduate?
Professor, Department of Languages, Linguistics and Translation, Laval University
I think that in order to work well in French, students or university graduates have to have spend some time in a French-language university. The question is, how much time do they have to spend there? It may vary depending on the individual and the field of study, but, as I said earlier, one thing is clear: our young people cannot always travel to a different university during their three-year BA program. Exchanges and training programs are desirable, obviously, but at the same time, English-language universities must be able to teach some French, and French-language universities must be able to teach English. It is not realistic to think that all our young people are going to travel to different universities.
Today, thanks to technology, many exchanges are possible without any travel. A course offered by Laval University could be given in Ontario, if there is a will to do this. There are ways this can be done. It is expensive, but the technology exists. At some point—and this why I mentioned this earlier—we will have to have short-term training programs that can take people's needs into account. Ideally, having an anglophone spend three years in Quebec and a francophone spend three years in Ontario would be the preferable option. However, I do think we have to be realistic.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.
We will continue now with Mr. Pierre Lemieux.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to thank the witnesses for their presentations. My questions are for Mr. Brennick.
I'm the member of Parliament for a riding located right next to Ottawa, in Eastern Ontario. I can certainly say that bilingualism is very important in my area. There are 65,000 francophones in my riding. I myself am a Franco-Ontarian, so I understand how important it is to be bilingual, to be able to speak the other language. Here in Ontario, the community is really anglophone, so we are talking about the ability to speak French. People must be competent when they speak in French.
I will ask you several questions at once, and then give you an opportunity to answer. I would like to know whether you work with French schools in Ontario, or if you work with English schools regarding immersion programs. The reason I ask the question is that in my riding, French is the minority official language.
Second, one of the assets of immersion programs is that our children are more open to their second language. However, people must be able to communicate well in their second language, in this case French. The public service is looking for young people who can speak French and English.
Do you work with the universities? What messages do you give our universities? Committee members are doing this study because they would like young people to be bilingual, to be open to the second language, but also able to speak and communicate well in their second language. We are looking at the universities to determine if they will introduce measures to encourage students to learn the other language. I would like to know whether you are working with the universities. If so, what messages are you passing on to our universities and colleges to encourage students to learn the other language?
President, National Board of Directors, Canadian Parents for French
If I might, I'll respond in English on this one.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
That's fine. We're bilingual. English or French--it's your choice.
President, National Board of Directors, Canadian Parents for French
The point I want to make is that we very clearly respect jurisdictional boundaries. When it comes to first language, second language, educational...we don't go there.
What we do have are partnerships with many francophone-interested bodies and entities. We look for the common ground. We think there is enough mutual interest that our children who are studying French as a second language have the opportunity to engage with, to mingle with, to learn, and to profit from....
There are some very functional and pragmatic reasons for that. For example, on the east coast, when there are touring groups from the arts and cultural organizations, we often get together with francophone groups to split the cost. It's a very pragmatic, practical thing. We both benefit.
We encourage that. We think that's very beneficial for our parents and our families that there are those opportunities. We think francophone bodies benefit as well.
On the university side, we have been actively spending time with universities to encourage them to provide a wider range of course offerings for students. If we take that one variant of French second-language immersion, we have 350,000 students across the country enrolled in immersion. The question is what happens to these students when they leave public school? They are not all going to the University of Ottawa. They are not all going to Université du Québec en Outaouais, Université de Moncton, or Faculté Saint-Jean at the University of Alberta. They are going into anglophone universities. Our question to anglophone universities is what are they doing for this population?
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
They're offering courses, but they're also requiring students to have a level of French.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
I'll just make my last statement, Mr. Chair.
I guess where I'm coming from—you won't have time for the answer, though—is that—
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
—there's a university providing courses in French, but then there's also the university requiring some level of French for their graduates. I think that would actually motivate students to increase their competency in the immersion programs, because they would then have a goal. The goal wouldn't just be for them to get through high school and French immersion, but they would need to have a certain level of competence to graduate from university.
I think the primary and secondary schools are feeding into the university environment and should all be working together, whereas right now there's a big disconnect. You leave grade 12 and you don't necessarily have to be competent in your second language.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to thank our witnesses for being here today.
In your opening remarks, Mr. Brennick, you said that special education students are discouraged from learning a second language. Today, there are many special education students. Do you have any information or statistics that show whether all special education students or anglophone special education students are discouraged from learning French, or whether this applies to francophone students?
I would like to mention a second point. I know a new schoolteacher. I do not know whether this is true throughout the country, but in Ontario, new teachers have to pick up contracts here and there to teach science, mathematics, and all sorts of subjects. The teacher about whom I am speaking is anglophone. At one point, he was asked to teach French in a school. That would have been like asking me to teach Chinese. So he gave up and left. I would like to know whether it happens often that anglophone or francophone teachers are teaching the other language without being qualified to do so, and whether this discourages students from learning the other language.
President, National Board of Directors, Canadian Parents for French
To answer your second question, I would say that I agree entirely. One time is one time too many. However, everyone knows that in reality, these things happen. That is why we suggest encouraging, subsidizing, and facilitating the training of qualified teachers. Requests are made for programs. Sometimes, a school board will approve. For example, there was a case in British Columbia where the school board had decided favourably, but no teacher could be found. This is the reality that discourages parents.
With respect to special education, I do not have the data with me, but based on our experience, particularly for immersion programs, some people are favoured because those making the decisions believe that they will succeed. Yet, gathering from our research, particularly that of Dr. Fred Genesee from McGill University, students who have learning difficulties can learn French as a second language.
I work in Nova Scotia as assistant professor at the Saint-François Xavier University. I have taught courses at the master's level and trained teachers to provide resources and support to immersion students. This is unique in Nova Scotia. It is similar to the English program, but it is in French. Our objective is to encourage universities that train teachers to make sure that they are equipped with the ability to assist their own students. Sometimes, decisions are made for the wrong reasons, or for lack of information.
Conservative
Conservative
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning. Firstly, for students to speak both languages well, we must have competent teachers. Laval University, among other universities, offers several language training programs. Mr. Brennick and Ms. Faitelson-Weiser said that these programs are not pan-American, and are therefore not accepted.
Allow me to speak of a personal example. My daughter holds a degree in teaching French as a second language from the Université du Québec in Montreal. When she moved to Ontario to teach, she was told that she did not have the required credentials to teach French, and instead, an English-speaking teacher who was not very fluent in French was given the opportunity to teach that year.
Mr. Brennick, you sit on a committee alongside the Official Languages Commissioner and members of the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada. I assume that you have raised this issue during committee meetings. What must we do to make sure that competent professors are able to teach?