Official Languages Committee on May 26th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Order, please.

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this 22nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. Today we begin a new study, which should normally be quite brief. So on the agenda we have the study of the Official Languages Program Transformation Model and training of francophone recruits in the Canadian Forces. For that purpose, we will be hearing, for the first time in the Standing Committee on Official Languages, from Mr. Pierre Daigle, who is the National Defence Ombudsman. He is here with Mr. Denis Egglefield, who is Director of Investigations.

We are pleased to see you this morning. Without further ado, I'll invite you to begin your opening remarks.

[Pierre Daigle, Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

I would like to thank the committee for inviting me here this morning to discuss the treatment received by unilingual military members at Canadian Forces Bases Borden and Gagetown and St-Jean Garrison. As you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, I am here with Denis Egglefield, who was the director responsible for this investigation.

Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I would like to begin by saying how honoured I was to have been appointed ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces in February 2009.

The office has helped to bring about real, positive and lasting change for all members of Canada’s Defence community over the past decade. And it has served as an important tool of openness, transparency and accountability. As ombudsman, I am determined to uphold this fine legacy. And I am absolutely committed to ensuring the fair and equitable treatment of all of the members of our Defence community—including, in this case, unilingual members of the Canadian Forces.

Over the next few minutes, I will update the committee on the work undertaken by the office in the area of official languages since Ms. Mary McFadyen, the interim ombudsman, appeared before you in March 2008.

Now I'm going to give you some brief background. As committee members may recall, the ombudsman’s office conducted an investigation at Canadian Forces Base Borden in 2007 after the previous ombudsman, Mr. Yves Côté, found that unilingual francophone members were experiencing significant difficulties working, training and accessing essential services in their first official language.

During the interim ombudsman’s appearance at this committee in 2008, Ms. McFadyen indicated that the ombudsman’s office was in the process of verifying the progress that had been made in addressing these problems following a visit to Borden by investigators in January and February 2008. The interim ombudsman also informed the committee that investigators had been dispatched to Canadian Forces Base Gagetown and St-Jean Garrison to determine if unilingual Canadian Forces members there were experiencing the same types of difficulties in getting access to training and services in their first official language.

Following the visit to Gagetown and Saint-Jean, Ms. McFadyen wrote to the Chief of the Defence Staff to inform him of a number of serious problems that were identified by ombudsman investigators. Generally speaking, Mr. Chairman, the office found that the concerns at Gagetown and Saint-Jean were similar in nature to those at CFB Borden. At Gagetown, francophone members were having difficulty accessing training and basic services in their first official language. More specifically, there was a lack of bilingual instructors and training materials, and many Canadian Forces members were simply unaware of their official language rights. At Saint-Jean, anglophone members were having difficulty accessing services, including health care services, in their first official language.

Concerning CFB Borden, on August 6, 2008, Ms. McFadyen wrote to the Chief of the Defence Staff to report on the progress that had been made in addressing the office's concern regarding the treatment of unilingual francophone members at that base. She informed him that investigators had observed a number of improvements, including an increased level of awareness of language rights as a result of the creation of a section on the base's website dedicated to official languages and the appointment of an official languages champion.

At the same time, however, Ms. McFadyen made it clear that many of the most serious concerns raised by the office still had not been resolved, including, in the area of training, the availability of essential services in both official languages and access to second-language assistance and training.

Mr. Chairman, even though I have only been the military ombudsman for just over three months, I find this unacceptable. The Canadian Forces had a year and a half to address these issues of fundamental fairness and simply did not do enough.

In her August 2008 letter to the Chief of the Defence Staff, the interim ombudsman advised him that the outstanding systemic issues were being referred to the Commissioner of Official Languages given that his office was beginning an audit of training establishments within the Canadian Forces. The commissioner’s mandate also enables him to examine all aspects related to official languages, including compliance with the Official Languages Act.

In referring outstanding concerns to the Commissioner of Official Languages, the interim ombudsman highlighted two areas of critical importance. The first was related to training. As a result of insufficient numbers of bilingual instructors, a lack of quality training material in French, and a lack of available French courses, francophone students were not being provided equal access to training opportunities, consequently delaying their career progression.

The second area of importance related to services. More specifically, the office found that a number of essential services—including medical and police services—were not available to Canadian Forces members in their first official language at Borden. The office also found serious health and safety issues at Gagetown and St-Jean regarding the communication of food allergies, the conduct of fire drills, and the commands provided on firing ranges.

After becoming the ombudsman in February of this year, this case became my top priority. I met with the commissioner in April and informed him that we will continue to assist his office in addressing systemic problems related to official languages.

I'm also committed to monitoring the progress made in implementing our recommendation and dealing with all individual complaints regarding official languages. I will be paying particular attention to any linguistic challenges faced by Canadian Forces members when I visit Borden, Gagetown, Saint-Jean, and any other military establishment installation across the country in the coming months.

In closing, I believe that this is an issue of fundamental fairness for the men and women of the Canadian Forces. It is essential that all Canadian Forces personnel receive equal opportunities to training and equal access to services, no matter their first language. At this time, we stand ready to provide any assistance that we can to the committee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you for that introduction, sir.

We'll now hand over to Mr. Jean-Claude D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Daigle.

After hearing your comments, I must admit it is extremely disturbing to see the current situation. It's as though there are headquarters staff people who aren't taking language issues seriously.

Earlier you talked about problems related to health, food allergies and evacuation exercises. All the situations you referred to are common in the lives of military members. One would say that it's taken for granted that people are supposed to know exactly what to do when there is a fire alarm, for example. It's no longer a matter of language. At some point, you have to be there, to show people what to do and to protect their health.

Imagine the problems that can arise when you're not able to obtain care in your mother tongue. That's previously been said in this committee. We've often cited the example of a somewhat older person who does not know the other language, who arrives at the hospital and cannot explain the nature of his illness. He may obviously wind up with medication that can do him more harm than good.

Today we're talking about appreciably the same things, but with regard to our military members. We're hiring people to serve the country and assigning them various duties, whether it be here in Canada or abroad. However, we aren't in a position to offer them basic services in their first language. We can't even ensure we care for these people in the language of their choice.

The situation regarding the transmission of orders on firing ranges is even worse—I previously raised that point with the former Minister of National Defence. Imagine, Mr. Daigle, that a problem may arise on a firing range and people can't clearly hear orders, as you said. What kind of disaster could we witness? That's one thing.

I also cited another example to the minister at the time. I told him to imagine that we sent men and women on a combat mission overseas, as is currently the case. If those people don't understand the orders they are given because we don't have the tools to speak to them in their mother tongue or in the language of their choice, whether it be English or French, what could happen? The lives of these people are at stake, the lives of ordinary citizens.

We're jeopardizing the lives of our military members and we don't even seem to be taking that seriously. You spoke eloquently. It was clear that you do not seem absolutely satisfied with what is going on. That's normal, since we don't have to accept this kind of situation.

The people at the head of the department, on staff, should be more serious in their work. I don't think they understand the importance that must be attached to respect for both official languages across the country, and more specifically to the duty to offer basic health services in the language of the soldier, anglophone or francophone, regardless of where he or she is.

Imagine giving military members orders on a firing range, in the field or in a war situation. In that context, what kind of dramatic situation could we be facing?

Do you think these kinds of things are acceptable?

[Pierre Daigle]

Thank you, sir.

As I was saying, there is still a lot of progress to be made. Of course, the Canadian Forces people have informed us that, since my predecessor gave them his remarks at the time of his visit to CFB Borden in early 2007, they had made progress. A team was sent to verify those statements, and nothing has been done thus far.

On a second occasion, in December, we were informed that progress had been made. After two follow-up visits, a team of investigators was sent to verify those statements. Indeed, some progress has been achieved. Unfortunately, however, it has been observed that most of our major recommendations have not yet been followed.

Issues related to safety, health, training and services to people are fundamental. In February, when I took up my duties, I examined the files and I believe not enough progress has been made.

Why has the reaction time been so long? Perhaps you should put that question to those who are responsible for implementing measures to comply with those recommendations. We are reporting that there has not been enough progress made in this regard. We've been saying these things for two years.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You said that well.

As you said, providing access to information via a website is one thing. However, who will check every half hour to see that useful information has been added to the website? This is a serious problem. People have to be given information in the field. The website can be useful, but it's in the field that we have to act. Not everyone can go onto the website during working hours, to see if additional services are available.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. D'Amours.

We'll now go to Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Ombudsman and Mr. Egglefield.

With regard to unilingual Canadian Forces recruits, I would like to know what the situation is in military schools, whether it be in the maritime, land or air force. Are francophones receiving their instruction completely in French, in the same way as anglophones receive it entirely in English? Is the same true for the services they receive outside their courses in order to help them progress?

[Pierre Daigle]

Mr. Chairman, this matter is further to the visits we conducted at Borden. At Borden, they mainly offer instruction in the combat weapons support trades. As part of our investigation, we sent a team to determine whether there were similar injustices at Gagetown, New Brunswick, and in St-Jean. The schools offering instruction belong to the land force. We didn't investigate training institutions belonging to the maritime or air forces.

All Canadian Forces recruits, whether anglophone or francophone, must do their basic training at Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. It's a national school for all recruits from across the country. The schools are mainly grouped together in Borden. The instruction provided is intended for all those wishing to qualify in those trades, both anglophones and francophones. In our investigation, we did not check to determine the situation at the bases you mentioned.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Following your investigation, would you say that anglophones can get 100% of their training in French?

[Pierre Daigle]

Where? At Borden?

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Yes.

[Pierre Daigle]

We noted some problems regarding the instruction of military members in their mother tongue.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

All right. That updates that situation.

I heard—and this is from someone who is quite familiar with the situation—that, in the air force, only 16 out of 600 courses were given in French. That's a very disproportionate figure. I don't have any evidence to give you on that point, but it's definitely an area where improvements could be made and where francophone recruits from across the country might be treated unfairly.

Mr. Ombudsman, I'd also like to know whether the bilingualism of candidates for appointments to high-ranking positions has been considered since the Official Languages Program Transformation Model went into effect. In other words, are all the generals and colonels in the Canadian Forces able to speak French and English?

[Pierre Daigle]

Mr. Chairman, from what I've read, the purpose of the Official Languages Program Transformation Model is to ensure that the National Defence work force, both military and civilian, are ordered, trained, managed and supported in the official language of their choice. I don't know any more about the model. I haven't examined it in detail. So I can't confirm or verify anything. However, I can say that the problems we noted with regard to official languages are unacceptable. I would like the Canadian Forces to address the recommendations concerning what we've been referring to for the past two years, which are still outstanding. The model is definitely a step in the right direction, but I can't tell you any more about the matter for the moment.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Daigle, I had the pleasure of looking at your career path. I believe that you yourself were in charge at Borden.

At the time, you very probably saw what the situation was. This is not new for you. What steps did you take to make the situation fairer and to enable francophones to receive 100% of their services and courses in French? Would you be able to help correct the remaining deficiencies?

[Pierre Daigle]

Mr. Chairman, when I was at Borden, my headquarters was located on the Borden base. It was the headquarters for the recruitment, education and instruction service of the Canadian Armed Forces. I was responsible for military colleges and recruitment centres across the country, various staff schools and schools at Borden. From 1999 to 2002, I was the commander of that training and I indeed noted problems with regard to instruction given to francophones. We began to take certain steps to correct the situation. It looks like we didn't do enough since, 10 years later, the situation remains. I see that's the case at Borden, and I think it's important that we examine that situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

We'll now go to Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First I'd like to welcome you and congratulate you on your appointment.

I also want to say hello to Mr. Egglefield.

It's interesting to see that, since January 2008, the ombudsman left and was replaced by an acting ombudsman, who did her best but only had the time to surf the wave a little then leave without being able to do anything. I don't want to blame her, however. You now have a permanent position. So there should be some continuity in your research efforts, particularly since you're very familiar with the situation.

The information we've received indicates that 77% of dental services courses are not offered in French. We're told that 33 courses are offered in English, that six are provided in French and that one is given in both languages. We know the situation: they simply don't care about the official languages. We're celebrating the 40th anniversary of the Official Languages Act and yet things are going from bad to worse. There were improvements until September of last year, but nothing has happened since the last election. It's as though everything had fallen back into the void.

In your opinion, what is the attitude of the Canadian Forces? Do the generals and colonels want us to stop bothering them with this because they think their mission is to defend people in Canada and abroad? Do they want us to stop bothering them with official languages? Is that their attitude?

[Pierre Daigle]

I couldn't state an opinion on that subject, but it appears from the two follow-up visits we made to see whether the corrective action we recommended had been applied that the Canadian Forces have not done enough. The recommendations regarding instruction and services—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Yes, but, Mr. Daigle, I'm speaking with you, who have experience, who have experienced the situation. Referring to the other one's report, we know the outcome. You're a member of the Canadian Forces and you saw what happened. Did you get the impression most people simply didn't care?

For years now, the official languages committee has been studying this issue. We question National Defence officials and the minister, but we get the impression nothing changes. Now you tell us in addition that it's no better at Gagetown or Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. It must be terrible in Alberta and Petawawa.

Are you now going to conduct an investigation to determine what's going on across the country?

[Pierre Daigle]

As you mentioned, these problems haven't been solved satisfactorily by the Canadian Forces. After exchanging numerous letters with the Chief of Defence Staff, we submitted the matter to the Commissioner of Official Languages. He will be conducting his audit on the bases where the Canadian Forces provide training. In addition, I'll be paying special attention to this matter when I visit all the Canadian Forces bases in the country in the coming months.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You transferred it to the Commissioner of Official Languages. At the same time, did you also forward complaints from military members on the bases?

[Pierre Daigle]

The entire file you are studying has been transferred to the Commissioner of Official Languages. All the systemic problems that have been raised and recommendations that remain outstanding have therefore been put before him.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

National Defence reports to someone. It must report to the Minister of National Defence. Are you prepared to say that there is a lack of will on the part of this government and even on the part of the previous government? None of this started yesterday. Is there a lack of will on the government's part to tell the Canadian Forces people that we're sending them to other countries to establish democracy and to enforce the law, whereas here, where we have the Official Languages Act, people in our own national defence department aren't able to enforce this one? Our soldiers are going to fight in other countries to establish democracy and to enforce the laws of those countries, whereas they aren't even able to comply with our laws. There's a problem.