Official Languages Committee on Oct. 1st, 2009

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all I would like to congratulate you. I was there when you emerged victorious. The way all this took place was very interesting. Even your adversaries, who are now colleagues who work with you, really liked the process. It went very well.

[Marie-France Kenny]

Thank you.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

My colleague Mr. Nadeau sent you his warmest greetings from Saskatchewan, but I am sending them from Sainte-Rose, New Brunswick.

[Marie-France Kenny]

Thank you very much.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We are aware of the problem: the money is not coming in. We have to find some solution. This did not start yesterday. It was already a problem when the previous government was in power, but we can see that things are getting worse. How can we solve this?

First, I would ask that you give the clerk a copy of the brief you read this morning.

[Marie-France Kenny]

I have already done so.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We would be able to obtain a copy later, if the text has not been translated.

I'm thinking in particular of organizations and programs that have been in existence for years. We know they're going to continue. I don't know when this was submitted to the government, but wouldn't it be possible to do so long enough in advance so that when budgets are tabled in the spring, they can't claim that it took until September to finish the work? Quite often, I hear that projects are submitted in November or December. It's as if these people were sitting down at a desk and said they didn't have to start working on this until May. Under the circumstances, it really is the government's fault because they didn't take a look at this file.

I'd like to know when you submit your applications.

[Marie-France Kenny]

It varies from province to province, but you're right to say that in December, we already start submitting draft projects. The programming is done at the end of the calendar year and not at the end of the fiscal year, that is in November. You mustn't forget that there are two envelopes: programming and projects. Programming is what ensures the core funding that an organization receives which allows it to hire staff to offer minimum service. Projects are above and beyond the programming. If you can't even ensure an employee's basic salary, you have a problem.

Applications are submitted in November.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Ms. Kenny, that doesn't make sense. It's not as if this problem had come up yesterday and that only one party was guilty. I've been a member of Parliament for years and I've always heard about this problem. We've toured regions of the country and everywhere people told us about this problem. How can an organization function if nobody is working on this? It's completely ridiculous. In Newfoundland, people have to phone us. According to what Pablo was saying, he's also gotten phone calls. I've gotten some too. A week before the Acadian World Congress, these people were still looking for money in order to send a delegate. That shows you to what extent the situation has become ridiculous. We're aware of the problem: they're not interested in giving money. It's as simple as that. If they were, the money would be available and they would find a solution. This is something that we can discuss with the department a little later.

If your application is submitted in December and examined immediately, it seems to me that a cheque could be cut in March.

[Marie-France Kenny]

I agree with you entirely. I'd like to point out that an application fills a binder. Canadian Heritage has to examine the content of the binder and approve it. Personally, if I go to the bank to get a loan, I'm not asked to provide enough information to fill a binder. I'll spend the money as I see fit once I have it in my pocket.

I want to point out that we have nothing against accountability. We have demonstrated a responsible attitude toward public funds, and as far as most organizations go, we have a good track record. Some organizations are just emerging. We want to make sure that we don't have to fill up a binder. That operation slows down the process, not to mention that there's an entire internal approval process.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Let me give you an example. Canadian Heritage has an office in Moncton with reliable people, as far as I can see. Otherwise, they should not be there. Regional organizations take their projects to Moncton. The staff in Moncton already knows the organizations. They can go through the binder rather quickly and tell the department what their recommendations are, that the follow-up is the same as in previous years, that that is what they recommend, that they have good notes on the organization, that it is serious and that it is doing good work. There is no need to go and get someone from Ottawa who will not understand anything in the binder and who will ask questions for six months. That is one of the problems. The decisions should be more local, and the recommendations too.

[Marie-France Kenny]

I agree with you about decentralization, but there again, current governance raises a problem with respect to how to decentralize.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Godin.

We will now go to Mrs. Shelly Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Good morning and congratulations, Ms. Kenny. It is nice to see your enthusiasm. Please pass on my congratulations to Ms. Lise Routhier-Boudreau, who did a very good job.

Since my election, I am gaining a better understanding of what I was hearing in my riding, since I have lived in a minority community for a long time. As Mr. Nadeau said, the situation has existed for years; it recurs. Receiving funding takes a long time.

So we are here to help you, and you are here to help us understand how to proceed. I greatly appreciated you mentioning solutions, and I thank you for them.

Personally, I was very happy to learn that the government had provided an unprecedented amount as part of the Road map for communities. That is a step forward, but how do you access the funding? I know that this year, as you pointed out, was very different, because the Treasury Board had to renew and examine all files for April 1, 2009, which meant a complete renewal cycle. So I understand that that was a huge challenge this year.

Now, with the support of Minister Moore, we expect multi-year agreements, as requested. We are working on that. Moreover, Minister Moore has already done so in the area of culture, among others, but there was also new funding, like for Music Showcases, translation, and so on. That is fine, but we must have a serious discussion with officials and departments in order to come up with some solutions, as you said.

I would like an update on the situation in your organizations and to know what your relations with people working in the region are. Are they good?

[Marie-France Kenny]

Generally, yes. The contribution agreement allows for some flexibility in our operations. There are regions where that poses a problem. It is not that the relations are bad, but certain things are imposed on us that are not imposed in another region. So when we get together, we realize that things are not done the same way everywhere, which is fine, in some ways, because it gives us some flexibility.

However, we realize that in certain regions, officials impose restrictions that others do not have and which are not justified. So we discussed that with Canadian Heritage, and we are now going to work on agreeing on a broader framework.

Relations are generally good. The problem is not with not the relations, interpersonal or other.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Can you tell me about the regional differences you alluded to? Ms. Bossé said there was a lot of paperwork. What are the differences you talked about?

[Marie-France Kenny]

In Saskatchewan, for example, there is a management committee which studies funding requests that have already been analyzed once by Canadian Heritage. The management committee is comprised of members from the community, including members of the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise. It is a subcommittee which meets and makes recommendations to Heritage Canada.

In Newfoundland, until this year, there was a committee comprised of bilingual and francophone people who were not active within the community and who did not have the right to be members of another organization or committee, and which decided on behalf of the community how to invest the money or funding. Further, this committee did not ask any questions of the community; it simply received the requests.

When I was a member of the ACF, I evaluated funding applications, and I can tell you that we had questions with regard to every application. We therefore held public meetings.

It is rather difficult to accept that a group of people, who are not active in the community and who don't really know the community, make decisions without even putting questions to those proposing projects in order to obtain clarification, and then recommend to Canadian Heritage who should obtain funding.

In Newfoundland, people said that there was no other process in place and that it was the same everywhere, when that is not the case. We had discussions with Canadian Heritage, of course, and we were told that they would give us that flexibility.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Very well.

Thank you very much, Ms. Glover.

We will now move on to Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Blaney.

Good morning.

Thank you for being here today. I would also like to thank you for conducting the survey. Congratulations. You have provided us with a recent snapshot of the situation, which gives us even more latitude. Again, congratulations.

You said that 72% of organizations have to take out a loan or a line of credit, which forces them to pay interest. Further, you also said that if people were late in providing a report on a project, they might be subject to penalties.

I have the impression that, in some situations, the project is more expensive than whatever funding may have been received. Would you agree with that?

[Marie-France Kenny]

That's correct. Since we often receive the funding late, we will decide not to go ahead with a project, especially when we have not received confirmation and when we are told that if we spend the money, we will be assuming all the risks.

Take the example of a one-year project. If we receive funding in October, it is clear and obvious that we will not spend our own money to hire someone to see the project through from April to October. We don't have the money, the nerves or the resources to do that. Therefore, we have to work twice as hard. Of course, we need to hire two people, we will have to spend more money to get things more quickly. Clearly, projects often end up costing us more than we had banked on.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

How long does it normally take to get the funding for a project after you have received confirmation?

[Marie-France Kenny]

It always depends on the province, territory or organization. It also depends on whether people have questions. Sometimes, Canadian Heritage will ask questions. But from the moment you receive confirmation, it usually takes several months before a cheque is sent.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Sometimes, when people have questions, this delays things, doesn't it?

[Marie-France Kenny]

That's not the case when funding has been confirmed.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

What kinds of questions are asked?