Official Languages Committee on Nov. 20th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

We can do that.

Mr. Godin, it's your turn.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We'll try to keep the linguistic aspect in mind.

I have been watching how things have been developing for the past few years. We are currently commemorating the War of 1812. I don't know when we'll commemorate the deportation of the Acadians, which happened in 1755. It was an event that affected us, the francophones. They were the first francophones in Canada.

In the pamphlets you gave us, Mr. Wilson-Smith, you mention the largest youth forum in Canada. You gave us a very nice package of the wonderful work you are doing.

Here we are, saying that we want to celebrate the 150th anniversary of Confederation in 2017, that we want to include the linguistic aspect and recognize the two founding peoples. The Commissioner of Official Languages is telling us that the 150th anniversary is an opportunity to celebrate and promote the official languages. That's what it says in the Roadmap. He is also suggesting an increase in the number of linguistic exchange programs in the schools.

However, this is the same government that eliminated the Katimavik program, which was important for promoting Canada's two founding peoples. This is the same government that appoints unilingual justices to the Supreme Court, that appoints unilingual officials of Parliament—

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Mr. Godin, Mr. Gourde has a point of order.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I would like to come back to the comment you made at the start of the meeting, Mr. Chair. I would like us to ask the witnesses questions to give our committee added value and find out what recommendations our witnesses have for the 150th anniversary celebrations.

I think that Mr. Godin could perhaps cut his comments short and ask a question, rather than use his five minutes to engage in a debate. We can use the House of Commons for debates, but we should work when we are in committee, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

One moment, please.

I've always given members lots of latitude in asking questions. We need to get information from the witnesses about the context of linguistic duality and official language minority communities for the 150th anniversary. That being said, if it's tangentially related to the topic at hand, I'm going to allow the question or comment—there doesn't have to be a question—because I've always believed that members should have that latitude. So I'm going to give the floor back to Monsieur Godin and he can continue with his line of questioning.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue with my list. We can talk about the closure of the search and rescue centre in Quebec City, the only bilingual centre of this type in Canada. What are we going to celebrate in 2017? Given all these closures and the lack of respect for bilingualism in Canada, I'm wondering what our history will look like in 100 years.

I know that you are making efforts to promote bilingualism. Mr. Jedwab said earlier that 65% of Canadians were in favour of bilingualism and that the others wondered if it was worth the trouble.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have to be bilingual to be an official of Parliament or a Supreme Court justice. Speaking about the 150th anniversary celebrations in 2017, that's all well and good, but certain things are going on right now. Is it this government's retreat from bilingualism that we are going to celebrate?

[Anthony Wilson-Smith]

I'm happy to begin.

First, of course, we're an independent institute politically. I'm not here to speak to overall policies of the government.

I certainly think that 2017, in the linguistic area as well as in other areas, does offer much to celebrate. But I'm also not here to say that Canada has had a perfect history in any of the activities that have been undertaken over time.

I think 1969 marks the declaration, as I recall, of official bilingualism in Canada. I think that would be one of the things to celebrate.

I would also tell you a couple of things in terms of our activities at HDI. Not only do we not pretend to be the definitive source of all things historical in this country, but rather, we always make a point, for example, of saying that in our 66 Heritage Minutes, the best-known feature that we have produced to date, we discuss largely the triumphs of this country in many different areas. We also do discuss failings. Certainly we've had programs that have dealt with the treatment of Acadians over time, and we've discussed that.

I will also tell you, for example, that in the citizenship area, where we discuss the experiences of new Canadians coming here, longer-established Canadians, and otherwise, we routinely have people who have recently arrived or, again, whose forefathers arrived here, who had a very difficult time when they arrived. They go into schools and they talk about that experience. That program is now being expanded to include in fact francophones, and specifically francophones from outside of Quebec, as well as members of the various first nations.

We don't tell those people what to do. We receive requests from schools or other community groups saying they'd like someone to talk about this, and then we bring someone over. Inevitably, and I know for a fact, a number of our speakers will go out and say they've had a very hard time here, that it hasn't been what they'd hoped it would be. They came here and they had great difficulty. Sometimes they'll say they surmounted it; sometimes they'll say it hasn't been what they wanted. That's the human experience, and that's what we're here to reflect as well.

So there are the warts, the flaws, the blemishes, and there are also the triumphs. I will say that in our perhaps haphazard manner we do represent all of those.

[Jack Jedwab]

I would wholeheartedly agree with that.

If I may, I will add that, at the association, we have always tried to bring together the diverse opinions surrounding the difficult issues in our history. If we cannot do that, we risk transforming our history into propaganda. I hope that will not be the case, whatever the commemoration may be.

We strongly believe that we need to contribute to the debate and commemorate several events, be it the Constitution, the Charter or something else. This provides an opportunity to discuss issues from a variety of perspectives and to point out the problems and challenges. I mentioned that 78% of Canadians would like to commemorate our accomplishments. However, 63% of people say that we need to look at our challenges as a society. We need to do both. I hope it will be possible to do so together, in the context of various segments or formations of society. Having debates is normal. And I would hope there would be debate on it.

Next year is the 50th anniversary of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism. I will put a great deal of energy into trying to inform the media that it is an anniversary to be commemorated, but not necessarily celebrated. This anniversary might just help us see the progress that we have made since then. It is very important to do this.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We can consider the progress made—

[Jack Jedwab]

I would like to raise another point—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

But we can also see how we have moved backwards.

[Jack Jedwab]

Yes, yes—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It goes both ways.

[Jack Jedwab]

Mr. Godin, if you'll let me, I would like to raise another point—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

When I leave New Brunswick to go to Ottawa, the same route takes me home. It goes both ways.

[Jack Jedwab]

Yes.

I have spoken fairly frequently in the media about my disappointment with the rate of bilingualism in the national capital. A week ago, I shared a fairly detailed report in the Ottawa Citizen, and four weeks previously, I shared another fairly detailed report. I am disappointed with the lack of progress that has been made here. I don't think this is a good symbol for the rest of the Canada when, at the very heart of the country, no progress is being made in that respect.

But I'm not giving up. I am trying to devote my energy to the recommendations so that we can improve the state of bilingualism. That's why I came to the conclusion I mentioned at the beginning. We need to ensure that there is contact between anglophones and francophones, particularly when it comes to anglophones. I'm speaking as an anglophone. I consider myself 60% anglophone. I adopted French in Acadia. My friends in Acadia told me I was an honorary Acadian. I think there is a lot of work to be done in this respect, and we must not give up. We need to continue working.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here this morning. This is very interesting for us. It is very important to take advantage of this celebration to promote bilingualism.

Mr. Corbeil mentioned an interesting statistic about young francophones outside Quebec—primary or secondary school students—who are exposed to French. It seems that the number is dropping. I don't know if you have any statistics on preschool-aged children. I suppose the trend is the same. If you do have that information, could you let me know?

What initiatives could we take to expose young people to the second official language in the context of the celebrations for the 150th anniversary of Confederation? What I mean is, if you are an anglophone, you need to be exposed to French, and if you are a francophone, you need to be exposed to English. I am thinking about the areas of sports, education and history. Perhaps there might be a way to have history programs.

Mr. Corbeil, could you tell me if you have collected statistics for preschool-aged children? After your answer, I'll let the other witnesses respond.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Thank you for your question.

With respect to preschool-aged children, the percentage of bilingual children is relatively low. The level of bilingualism peaks with the 15 to 19-year-olds. But in 2011, we obtained the highest level among the 10 to 14-year-olds for the first time.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I have a question about that.

Do you have any statistics that show that preschool-aged children who are exposed to both languages manage to become bilingual by age 14? They start learning at age 8, 9 or 10, but those children who start at age 3, 4 or 5, do they have a real advantage with respect to learning both official languages?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Of course, learning a language when you are very young makes it easier to maintain that language. We are seeing one thing, in particular, with respect to exogamous unions; in other words, couples where the two spouses do not share the same mother tongue. The number of exogamous couples is growing. Children of exogamous couples are much likelier to maintain their bilingualism because the francophone parent chooses to send the child to a minority school or places them in an immersion program.

The biggest obstacle is this: even if you have learned a language, not having contact with groups who speak that language or opportunities to speak that language lessens the ability to maintain that language. As Mr. Jedwab said, we have seen, in most of our studies, that when contact is frequent, language maintenance is much higher. Children who attended immersion programs are much more likely to be bilingual than other Canadians who had a standard French-as-a-second-language education, even six or seven years after leaving the immersion program.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you.

How could we give our young people opportunities to acquire both languages in the context of the celebrations of the 150th anniversary of Confederation?

[Jack Jedwab]

First of all, there is a difficult issue which is that education is a matter of provincial jurisdiction. That is not necessarily a problem, but it is a reality.

However, certain technologies are available. For instance, I made a suggestion in a paper I wrote quite recently. With the help of Skype, we can twin schools, that is to say an English-language school with a French-language school, in order to allow young people to communicate directly amongst themselves. For instance, anglophones in an immersion class absolutely need opportunities to practise French if they are to improve.

However, that is not sufficient, and the figures show it. Jean-Pierre, who is here with us, is the pre-eminent expert in Canada on this subject.

I don't say that lightly, by the way. I mean that.

Take this region, the Gatineau and Ottawa area. In Gatineau you are going to see the francophones learn English at a later stage, according to the census, in their educational cycle. Very often it's not until they hit the workplace that they acquire the English language, but they acquire it en masse once they hit the workplace.

Often the anglophones who get the exposure to French in the schools, once they get out into the workplace, don't have the opportunity to use it in a sufficient way, and hence you're seeing a drop in the extent to which they retain the language, despite the important investment in their acquisition of the language at the school level. What they need is more opportunities for contact, both at the early stage of their education....

First, they need to add communication to their learning. Currently, they do not necessarily have the opportunity to do so, even if the new technologies would allow this at a reasonable cost. We know that we are in a difficult financial period. However, I think the new technologies can provide opportunities to offer this type of communication or encourage it, in creative ways.

There are also other programs. Mr. Godin mentioned Katimavik. I don't want to comment on Katimavik, but allow me to point out that whatever the program that is in place, the principle remains important. The principle being that opportunities to create this type of contact are becoming increasingly numerous. It is true that opportunities come up in the workplace. We could say that this happens naturally, but certain regions in Canada are located outside of those areas where direct contacts can occur naturally. I think that with technologies and programs that utilize new technologies to advantage, we can set up or support such contacts. There are other programs where the principle of promoting such contacts could be furthered. This is all the more important in the context of our 150th anniversary, if we want to do more than just talk about having a bilingual country. In fact, the majority of Canadians think that Canada is bilingual. In all of the surveys I conducted, francophones outside Quebec also think that Canada is a bilingual country.

I do not entirely share the opinion that we are a bilingual country. I look at reality. I think that we are bilingual from the legislative point of view. However, from the practical point of view, if you look at the rate of bilingualism, that is to say peoples' real capacity to speak both languages, the situation of Canadian anglophones is very close to that of Americans who do not speak Spanish. Bilingualism here is not on a par with bilingualism in Europe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Ms. Hylland, please answer briefly.

[Sue Hylland]

I just wanted to comment because a piece of our presentation...and Mr. Dion, if I could just comment on your first comment, and I think it's valid, with respect to what sport is doing; there are a lot of stats and a lot of history. The message we were trying to give was that we are a catalyst. We have reach and impact, scale and scope, the Canada Games, like no other organization, and we happen every two years. There is a powerful message I was trying to send about being a catalyst.

To your comment, one of the pieces we did mention is that we already have an education kit that celebrates Canada. That's what it does.

Three or four weeks ago, I was at a French high school in Ottawa, Louis Riel High School, where they had 300 or 400 kids learning about Canada, integrating culture. The Canada Games itself has some of the best practices for the integration of our linguistic duality.

In Sherbrooke, Quebec, which is the next host of the Canada Games next August, there are English Wednesdays going on in that whole society. In Prince George, B.C., which is the site of the 2015 Canada Winter Games, they are about to implement French Wednesdays.

I think we have some of the greatest practices through sport, and our reach and impact is great.

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.