Official Languages Committee on March 19th, 2013

[Graham Fraser]

We have not yet examined it. I feel that it is important for us to know more about it. I have flipped through it, but we have not had the time to analyze it.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Great. We will eagerly wait for your conclusions, then.

My honourable colleague, Mr. Dion, pointed out the occasional tendency to paint somewhat of a rosy picture. Sometimes, it's important not to wear rose-coloured glasses so as not to influence the conclusions. I heard a contradiction in your comments today, and it leads me to believe that the rose-coloured glasses may, in fact, be on. In your brief, you say that “the dominance of English often reduces the space that francophones have to express themselves. But these dangers do not come from...federal institutions.” Then, five or six minutes later, you turned around and said that the anglophone culture of departments was so strong you had to remind them that they had to do more than simply tolerate French, but actually promote it.

How do you reconcile the assertion that federal institutions do not contribute to the problem in any way and your comment about the departmental anglophone culture being so strong that you had to—

[Graham Fraser]

When I mentioned the anglophone culture of departments, I was referring to the situation here in Ottawa, in the National Capital Region.

Furthermore, anglophones are under-represented across federal departments in Quebec. When you examine the challenges faced by anglophone public servants working in federal departments in Quebec, you see the exact same problem that francophone public servants here in Ottawa face, just flipped around. Anglophones in Quebec are reluctant to speak in English during work meetings because it's the minority language. They want to use the language of work chosen by the group. They are reluctant to use English when writing reports.

Personally, my observation has been that anglophones are under-represented in federal institutions in Quebec. It's more or less the mirror image of what we see here, in Ottawa.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

In a committee meeting, the official languages minister recently said that centralized oversight of the departments was ending and that monitoring of the quality of French would be decentralized going forward. What mechanisms do you intend to put in place to monitor how that decentralization affects the quality of French-language services? Basically what the minister was saying was it would be up to every colleague, minister and department to make sure the quality of French-language services was acceptable. What measures have been put in place to ensure that decision doesn't have any negative consequences?

[Graham Fraser]

I've already voiced my concerns about the significant staffing reductions at the Centre of Excellence for Evaluation at Treasury Board. I believe the number of employees has gone from 56 to 13. So it's becoming more and more difficult for the people at Treasury Board to ensure a high quality of French and its use within the departments. The overall trend is to shift responsibilities to the departments, and that applies not just to official languages.

Shared opinions on that phenomenon do exist. Language training no longer falls under the responsibility of the Canada School of Public Service. It is now up to each department and, in turn, falls on each manager. Language training is supposed to factor into every employee's training program. On the one hand, that can be seen as positive in that the language training will be more tailored to the terminology and nature of each department. On the other hand, it becomes extremely difficult to evaluate where things stand. We are in the midst of studying the language training situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Ms. Bateman, it's over to you.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us today and for all the work you've done over the past seven years. Like Mr. Dion, I hope that your appointment will be approved for another term.

This isn't in the biographical notes that the analysts prepared for us, but I heard that you were from Manitoba.

[Graham Fraser]

No. I've visited a number of times, but I'm from Ottawa, one of those elusive few who live in Ottawa and were born in Ottawa.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's life.

[Graham Fraser]

I spent my teenage years in Toronto. I went to high school and university there. I got married in Toronto and our sons were born there.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Pity, pity!

Mr. Dion touched on the issue of immersion programs. The reason I am able to speak French as fluently as I do stems from having two children who went to French immersion. I am proud of their hard work and their ability to speak both official languages, but I started learning the language after they did.

[Graham Fraser]

Congratulations. I'd say you've learned a lot.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, commissioner.

Education, as you know, is a provincial responsibility. But the federal government still invests heavily in immersion programs and education in general. How are hiring practices within the public service affected by this pool of young people who have taken French immersion?

[Graham Fraser]

A few years ago, the Secretary of the Treasury Board at the time told me that 40% of new public servants were already bilingual when they were hired. I would assume, then, that a significant portion of those new employees are the product of immersion programs, but not all.

Myself, I am not the product of an immersion program. If there's anything negative about the success of immersion programs, it's the misconception that they're the only way to learn French. Clearly, that's not the case. I know many people who are perfectly at ease in both official languages and who did not go through immersion programs. They learned the other language later in life, as I did.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Fraser, have you observed a decrease in the cost of learning programs as far as language training for public servants goes? I'm speaking in relation to that 40% of people entering the public service with bilingual proficiency. That's a significant proportion, after all.

[Graham Fraser]

As I said, one of the disadvantages of decentralizing the language training responsibility and shifting it to managers, is that it becomes very tough to monitor the costs.

When the Canada School of Public Service administered French training at the Asticou Centre, the number of instructors across the public service was known, as was the number of students, regardless of level. At the same time, an analyst, say, in a specific department would take French training after the staffing process. As things stand now, it's pretty difficult to determine the costs because they are so scattered across the public service.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Treasury Board doesn't have that information?

[Graham Fraser]

We were told that it's pretty difficult to get those numbers. I am hoping that, with the study we're doing now, we will at least be able to arrive at a cost estimate under the new approach.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I hope so, given that 40% of employees are already bilingual, which did not used to be the case. That's why I am a bit confused about one of your main priorities.

I am absolutely in favour of promoting linguistic duality, enhancing the vitality of official language communities and ensuring the sound management of the commissioner's office. But given the statistic you cited—the fact that 40% of new public servants are already proficient in both of our country's official languages—why are you so concerned? Why did you again decide to focus on the impact of the budget cuts? The reality is that both languages will come out stronger. That's not in line with the overall vision your other three priorities fit into. Could you kindly clarify?

[Graham Fraser]

If, as a result, institutions serving minority language communities close, if closures diminish the champion network, if the cuts mean less money for translation, if they create an atmosphere—

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That isn't the case, as you know.

[Graham Fraser]

—where respect for both languages in the workplace is deemed too costly, that concerns us. Mr. Dion already mentioned my reluctance to use percentages. It is not necessarily the percentage of people who have gone through language testing that matters but, rather, the use of both official languages in the workplace.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Very good. Thank you.

Mr. Ravignat, the floor is yours.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Fraser.

As a native Franco-Ontarian, I don't necessarily share the rosy outlook I am sensing you have. I am 40 years old, and a large chunk of Franco-Ontarians of my generation have assimilated. I know them; they are my friends. I worked on official languages at the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada. The research points to a serious assimilation problem in the Franco-Ontarian population. One of the biggest struggles in Franco-Ontarian history has to do with the public service and the importance it gives to French.

Something you said worries me. You seem to be holding the francophone public servant accountable for not asking that their language be respected. However, that person isn't necessarily given the tools they need. You spoke with managers, but managers are managers. A culture is in place. You even talked about it. How do we give public servants the tools they need to stand up for their language and make sure their manager respects that choice?

[Graham Fraser]

If I gave the impression that there weren't any challenges surrounding the French language, I did not explain myself clearly. I think I said the challenges were very real in the scientific, entertainment and international trade communities. Those challenges are real.

Furthermore, I hope I didn't say that I put the onus solely on public servants. What matters is leadership. I have noticed that when leadership changes—