Official Languages Committee on April 25th, 2013

[Chantal Bourbonnais]

Yes. I would add the entire issue of immigration and the federal government's role in promoting immersion programs when newcomers enter the country. The idea here is for them to be made aware of the immersion programs offered.

I am also thinking of national standards for language skills. Philippe talked about that earlier. I am talking about a common framework of reference for languages. That would help determine whether people who claim they are bilingual are sufficiently bilingual to work at Tim Hortons or in the public service. If we had Canadian standards, the world would know what it means when people say they are bilingual to a given level.

There is also the mobility of teachers and school administrators among the provinces and territories. I believe the federal government could facilitate mobility.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

You seem to be off to a good start.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Dion and Ms. Bourbonnais.

Mr. Trottier, you have the floor.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses today.

My questions will be somewhat similar to those of Mr. Dion and Mr. Godin. The federal government's role in education is, in a way, the basic problem for us. It is clearly a provincial responsibility. So we are looking for ways to add value to this immersion issue. The demand is there, particularly in my region. In the Toronto area, more than 25% of students are enrolled in immersion programs.

Immersion programs have been around for many years. However, it happens that, even after 12 or 14 years of immersion, graduates do not really feel they are bilingual or really francophone, despite all their efforts. I believe you touched on that point in your presentation, Mr. Le Dorze, when you talked about what is being done outside the schools, the exchange programs, for example.

As you are no doubt aware, sometimes immersion in a city such as Toronto is not really immersion. Students speak English in the yard at recess and, once they have left school, are immersed in a city where English is entirely predominant

What can the federal government do to correct these immersion deficiencies? When we talk to people who have spent years in immersion schools, it is frustrating to see that they do not yet master the language.

[Philippe Le Dorze]

Manitoba's immersion situation is currently different from that of Ontario. In most cases, immersion is a creature of the school divisions. Consequently, what is called immersion in one school division may correspond to a 50% program starting in grade 4. The skills that students acquire will be related to the intensity and quantity of French and to the number of years spent learning it.

In some cases at the secondary level, it is enough for students to take 30% of their courses in French for the program to be called an immersion program. However, in a semester system, that may mean not taking a French course for a year. Is that really immersion?

With regard to management of the types of programs, the federal government could, for example, encourage the provinces to find a common definition of what constitutes an immersion program rather than leave it to each of them to do what it wishes.

They do a lot very early on and afterwards no longer know what they are doing. It would be a good idea to have rules establishing the number of hours of contact in French immersion, from start to finish, so that that is clear and everyone does virtually the same thing instead of having this umbrella called immersion that is very different from one place to another.

Manitoba did that, and I believe it has been very beneficial for immersion students in that province. It established an immersion curriculum policy defining how immersion is done back home in Manitoba.

I think that would be part of the solution.

The other is also related to the idea you raised in your question concerning the different skills of immersion graduates. We should have a national tool to determine the level of French language proficiency of all Canadians, regardless of where they graduate, whether it be from immersion, core French courses or university. A tool for determining proficiency levels would go far. Immersion parents would be delighted to have that kind of tool emerge and be developed in Canada.

We currently use the DELF. It works and is beginning to spread across Canada. However, I think we should have a Canadian tool one day.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

All right, thank you.

Sometimes there is conflict between French-language schools and immersion schools. You are probably aware of the problem. This concept of rights holders is not really an issue in a city like Toronto. Everyone has a right to attend a French-language school. It is an issue based on heritage or the language of the parents. Everyone has a right to do it. That is now the situation in Ontario. Consequently, parents enrol their children in French-language schools even if they do not speak a word of French. French-language schools are being used as immersion schools.

How can we solve this problem? Francophone parents complain that this dilutes the quality of French in French-language schools.

Have you addressed this issue in Manitoba or elsewhere in the country?

[Philippe Le Dorze]

It is increasingly a problem. We have heard about it in British Columbia, where French-language school systems were accepting virtually anybody.

I also know that, in Manitoba, more than half of students starting kindergarten in the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine do not speak French. They are then francized. This is a serious problem that reflects the changing nature of the francophonie in minority communities.

The French-language school system in Ontario is managed by francophones. They accept everyone because they understand the necessity of doing so. That can clearly have an impact on the schools offering immersion. However, if you think about it, it helps francize many students. That may be one way of operating.

Promoting bilingualism will clearly attract more young anglophones wishing to learn French, and that has value.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

All right, thank you.

I give the floor to Mr. Galipeau.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome all our witnesses.

I have been following the discussion. I particularly appreciated the questions asked by Mr. Dion. The witnesses' recommendations are about money.

It is suggested that we could resolve this issue using national means, whereas this area of activity is exclusively subject to provincial legislation under section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867.

I heard what Ms. Bourbonnais said on the subject. I sense her anxiety and I share it. However, I did not hear any good suggestions about ways to circumvent section 93.

Have you spoken to the Council of Ministers of Education, which brings together all the provincial ministers?

[Chantal Bourbonnais]

It is difficult to talk to those people.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

They are not that approachable?

[Chantal Bourbonnais]

They in fact refuse to listen to community groups. We invite them to our meetings and try to keep them informed, but it is not always easy to influence CMEC on educational matters.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

The force of inertia is strong, is it not?

[Chantal Bourbonnais]

However, we do have a tool, the roadmap, which establishes targets, objectives and priorities for five years.

In my opinion, the federal government's role is very much linked to the roadmap in that it gives guidance and establishes priorities and targets. The roadmap serves somewhat to guide the provincial ministries of education since education remains subject to provincial legislation. However, the federal government has a major role to play in official languages.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

We have invested more than $1 billion in the roadmap. So we are serious about this.

However, I find it interesting that you tell me the Council of Ministers of Education suffers from inertia. Perhaps it does.

[Chantal Bourbonnais]

It may not suffer from inertia, but it is not necessarily open to the influence of community groups.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

I would like to ask you a personal question. Do you come from Ontario?

[Chantal Bourbonnais]

Yes.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

When I was a young boy, the man in all the Bourbonnais families in all the francophone villages of eastern Ontario was a cheese-maker and the woman was a teacher.

[Chantal Bourbonnais]

That is the same family.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Dolorès Chartrand taught me and my sister. The same was true of all my children.

[Chantal Bourbonnais]

There are a lot teachers in my family.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Mr. Shea, you and I have been to war together before, and I really, really am grateful for the work you've done with Canadian Parents for French. You are a pioneer. Thanks to the work that you've done in your career, Canada is a better country, and I thank you.

[James Shea]

May I respond, Mr. Chair?

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

No, I'm not finished.