Evidence of meeting #82 for Official Languages in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Assistant Director , Chief Specialist, Language Statistics Section, Statistics Canada
Are you talking about the decline of 400,000 persons, from 1.8 million to 1.4 million?
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Yes, that is a drop. Is it because that young cohort is smaller? How do we explain that?
Assistant Director , Chief Specialist, Language Statistics Section, Statistics Canada
I am going to take this opportunity to do a little advertising.
On May 28, Statistics Canada will publish a study on the evolution of bilingualism over the past 50 years. Immigration, in particular, is a factor. However, it must be understood that education is a provincial jurisdiction. Instruction in French as a second language is not mandatory in most provinces west of Ontario. There may be all kinds of reasons for that, but the fact that the composition of Canada's population is undergoing profound change is also a factor. That is all I can say for the moment.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I am obviously trying to understand this situation. Despite the influx of immigrants, if institutions continue to teach French, those people should normally learn it at least as a second language.
Now I am going to put my questions to our other two guests.
What is your assessment of the roadmap? Has that funding been beneficial to you? If so, how do you explain the fact that, following the roadmap, we are in a situation in which bilingualism is declining?
Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
First of all, I would say that, yes, the roadmap has been very beneficial. We have benefited in many ways.
In response to the second part of your question, as to why bilingualism is declining, there are several scenarios that could explain that phenomenon. However, I do not necessarily want to venture into that area. I am not an expert on language retention, although I may have some expertise on language retention by minority members learning English. English and bilingualism in our French-language schools are not declining, on the contrary.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Last week, some immersion school teachers came to testify and told us that the quality of teachers instructing young Canadians in schools where the second language is being taught was generally not up to scratch. There appear to be enormous problems recruiting teachers with good French-language proficiency in the school system.
Are you aware of that situation?
Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
I cannot offer an opinion for them, but I would say that many people teaching in immersion schools are also products of French-as-a-first-language education faculties. I can tell you that I do not think those teachers are products of these schools, and there are a lot of them in the immersion schools—
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I was not talking about immersion schools. I was really talking about instruction in French as a second language in the public schools.
Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
As for instruction in French as a second language in the public schools, many of those teachers have been trained to teach French as a first language. They have an additional qualification to teach French as a second language. I believe this situation is the same as in any system. Perhaps some teachers need more training and experience.
However, based on the information I have, many of those teachers are highly qualified. They are very good, very suitable and very effective. However, it is possible that some teachers need additional assistance. You see that in any system.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Do you believe there would be room in the roadmap to support and improve this aspect?
Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
If that is a priority for instruction in French as both a first and second language, then I think there is room for that. That should be the case.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Do your federations have any teacher exchange programs with English-language school boards?
Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
No.
Conservative
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to our witnesses for being with us today.
I will begin with the Statistics Canada figures.
The decision for Canadians to enrol their children in immersion courses is often motivated either by cultural factors or, economically speaking, by the hope that their children can find high-quality jobs. In some respects, bilingualism can lead to interesting jobs.
However, are you able to measure the income levels of people who claim to be bilingual relative to those of other Canadians as a whole? Is there a difference? If so, do you have those details on a province-by-province basis?
Assistant Director , Chief Specialist, Language Statistics Section, Statistics Canada
Yes, absolutely.
That information, which many people are interested in, is available in the data from censuses prior to 2011. It can be found in the National Household Survey, from which income information will be published in August. It is possible to determine average income by industry and professional sector.
In fact, it must always be understood that several factors are involved. Frequently, it is not so much bilingualism that influences income levels as the use of both languages. When you compare people who are bilingual, those who are required to use their second language at work generally have higher incomes than those who are bilingual but do not necessarily have the opportunity to use both languages in their workplace. That information is indeed available from Statistics Canada sources.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
You said in your presentation that students tended to lose their French after their postsecondary studies. One can imagine that some have the opportunity to work in an environment—a working or other environment—in which they can use both languages but that others return to an environment in which only one language is used.
Do you think the latter situation may cause students who have been enrolled in English- or French-language immersion to lose their second language?
Assistant Director , Chief Specialist, Language Statistics Section, Statistics Canada
The research quite clearly shows that the environment in which the person lives and, of course, contact with that language are the principal factors involved in maintaining second-language proficiency. Studies on the first immersion programs have clearly shown that the support and supervision that students are given by their schools and parents and the fact that they live in an environment enabling them to use their second language are enormous factors in enabling them to retain their language skills.
Many young anglophones who left English-language schools and then learned French say they no longer have an opportunity to use the language once they leave the school environment. Many francophones decide to speak English because they feel that no one around them speaks French. This kind of communication may be a problem precisely because no value is necessarily attached to the use of French in that environment. Further research must be conducted in order to gain a clearer understanding of why some individuals who left immersion programs and whose bilingualism levels were very high subsequently managed to maintain those levels.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Failing an opportunity to use their second official language in their environment, could people be encouraged to watch television programs or use social media, such as Facebook, the Internet or Skype, for example, to make contact with young people from other environments in their second language? Those people have spent 6 to 12 years of their lives learning a second language, which requires motivation. Unfortunately, they lose virtually all their language skills in four or five years. We must find a way to motivate them to preserve that human capital, that learning in which they have invested so much.
Assistant Director , Chief Specialist, Language Statistics Section, Statistics Canada
Of course, everything depends on valuing the language. A purely instrumental perception of the use of languages is very different from one in which a person values language learning and considers it an asset. Language is not just a means of communication. As my colleagues mentioned, it is also a way of expressing and conveying a culture. In my opinion, if we convey the richness of Canada's two dominant cultures, we will already have some of the ingredients.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
My next question is for the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones.
Immersion courses are really very popular. However, other witnesses said they really had trouble finding qualified, high-quality teachers. Demand is really very high.
If demand increased by 20% and these children had the opportunity to enrol in these programs, would we currently have enough teachers or would we have to create programs and motivate teachers to give those courses? If there are no teachers, it will be impossible to continue even if we create other courses.
Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
We talked about promoting the importance of immersion, of French as a first language and as a second language. We also talked about valuing, but do we value linguistic duality enough? That may be what will motivate future teachers to go and teach in the schools.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
I believe that the best francophone teachers are Quebeckers. I know a few. They are young people who have gone to work in other provinces. They try that for three or four years, but, as a result of the isolation, 50% of them return to Quebec to teach in other fields or simply change professions.
Should we offer support to teachers who leave their province? If they are prepared to leave for the next 25 years, they must rebuild their lives, taking the good with the bad, as the saying goes, but it does not necessarily come automatically.
Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
We know a lot about that issue in the French-language schools. Isolation is a major factor. There is a way to break out of that isolation by networking. There are all kinds of ways to do that today. You yourself talked about the importance of, and current access to social media, access via Skype and access to courses of all kinds. Some teachers associations promote this kind of networking.
