Official Languages Committee on April 8th, 2014

[Jocelyne Lalonde]

I do not have those statistics. However, I can definitely say that most students with post-secondary education who can work in both official languages have many opportunities when it comes to finding employment after graduation.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

The last time you appeared before our committee, you said you did not have statistics on how a francophone student compares to an anglophone student when the time comes to find a job. Do you now have those statistics?

[Jocelyne Lalonde]

We do not have those statistics. It would be very difficult to get them because you would really have to—

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

The last time you were here, you said that you were conducting a study to get that information.

[Jocelyne Lalonde]

I was not talking about those statistics. What we started to do was to collect more targeted information about the number of international students who are attending our universities. A study of students who found jobs after graduating should be carried out. Once they have graduated, they enter the job market. Universities and colleges often lose track of students who leave and go to other regions.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

My next question is for Mr. Corbeil.

What variables or indicators must we use to understand the socio-economic situation of official language minority communities?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

There are many.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I imagine so, but can you give us the key statistics?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Yes.

For example, the National Household Survey contains data on the main areas studied. Thus, you can look for information on young people who are old enough to have completed their university studies in order to determine in which areas or industries they are working and the professions they practice based on their characteristics. That is one of the indicators that permits us to follow these students.

The National Graduates Survey provides very important data on interprovincial migration that makes it possible to follow the people surveyed. For example, we know that people who lived in New Brunswick five years ago are in Alberta five years later. We know the sectors they work in and their average and median income. We have information about their unemployment rate, participation rate and highest level of education. For example, we know that people who migrate to Alberta have a high income but that their level of education is not necessarily high.

With respect to people who leave New Brunswick to work in Alberta, we note that there is a smaller percentage with a university degree when compared to people who migrate to other provinces. This phenomenon has been well explained. There is a significant number of jobs in Alberta and salaries are much higher, which tends to attract francophones from other regions.

Those are just a few indicators or types of information available based on our data. There are quite a few. As I just mentioned, the economic situation of official language minorities is a very complex problem that has multiple dimensions. Thus, there many results and statistics to consider.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Williamson, you have the floor.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would also like to thank all the witnesses for coming here today.

Mr. Corbeil gave a fairly positive economic account of official language communities, in terms of education, jobs, unemployment and so on.

Could you expand on that?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

As my colleague Jean-François Lepage mentioned, the information provided pertains only to the provinces. As they say, “The devil is in the details”. Small communities are facing very significant challenges.

In northern New Brunswick, for example, francophones are concentrated in sectors where the industrial structure may be required to change. That poses challenges in terms of education and training. When we examine the major international surveys of literacy and numeracy, the achievement of New Brunswick francophones is not as good. There are those sorts of challenges.

If we look at the overall situation, you are right: the situation has improved greatly. That is mainly because Alberta and Ontario are attracting educated and trained people. In short, francophones from other provinces who are more educated are necessarily more likely to migrate, particularly those from Ontario and Quebec. That influences the socio-economic structure of the communities to which these people migrate.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Very good.

Nevertheless, although Alberta and Ontario attract francophones, we must be cautious because this is also occurring where I come from, southern New Brunswick, which has a predominantly anglophone population. Even in those regions, there are people who will go out west to find a job. Therefore, this phenomenon is not exclusive to francophone minority communities.

Can you tell us what challenges Canada faces? What can we do in the next 10 or 20 years about this? What are the challenges that we need to identify and address?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That is a complex question that we could discuss at length. I am going to make a connection to what my colleague, Jocelyne Lalonde, talked about.

It is clear that, in terms of post-secondary education, there are significant challenges to be addressed in order for francophones to be able to study in their own language. Ms. St-Denis spoke of the issue of anglicization. When youth from more rural areas migrate to a major urban centre to continue their post-secondary education in English, they often tend to remain there and become anglicized. That is a fairly well documented phenomenon.

We mentioned that immigration is an important lever for revitalizing communities. Immigrants in general, and not just French-speaking immigrants, face significant challenges in terms of labour market integration, recognition of foreign qualifications and opportunities for obtaining Canadian work experience.

There are a certain number of challenges. In the end, we have to ask ourselves if we really want to promote the economic development of francophones, whether or not they become anglicized. There is an important problem in that regard.

That is not just the case for official language minorities. It is the case in Quebec and elsewhere. In regions where there are small communities, youth tend to migrate to the major urban centres and do not necessarily return to their regions. There are a number of factors to be considered.

We can provide more information about that, if you wish.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Lepage, did you want to add something?

[Jean-François Lepage]

Yes, thank you.

I am presently studying the issue of francophones living outside Quebec. As you mentioned, the models for the migration and immigration of francophones and anglophones are similar. In general, people are moving in the same direction. However, there are minority francophones who live in regions that attract very few migrants or immigrants. We can see that the challenges are not quite the same at the regional level.

In areas where there are many francophone immigrants and migrants—that is, areas where people are moving to—we see that the use of French is the main issue. In other areas where there is a larger francophone population, the challenges observed are more a function of socio-economic conditions than the use of the language. That applies to both anglophones and francophones living in these communities. There is also a regional aspect.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

I am sorry, but your time is up.

Mr. Nicholls, you have the floor.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you to the witnesses.

My questions will be primarily for Mr. Lepage and Mr. Corbeil concerning indicators and research gathering.

L'Institut national de santé publique du Québec in May 2012 came out with a report on the well-being of anglophones. In the summary of socio-economic indicators, they said that there was a socio-economic gulf among anglophones who experienced higher poverty levels than francophones in Quebec. They were slightly richer overall in terms of average income, but they experienced greater levels of poverty. The report surmised there was an economic polarization within the group. The median income is lower because of serious poverty in anglophone groups.

Can you explain the story in this data? What's going on with anglophones in Quebec on the ground?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

It's a very large question, a very good question, that would probably deserve more time than I can devote here.

Basically, we have to keep in mind that in Quebec, the share of the immigrant population within the English-speaking community is fairly important. We're talking about above 35% to 36% of the English-speaking population that comes from immigration. As we know, there are challenges regarding the integration of these immigrants in the labour market. In comparison, the proportion of the French-speaking population that comes from other countries is around 10%, so it's a fairly significant difference. There are challenges for sure.

Also, a fact that is not clear, and very few studies have looked at, is how we can explain the fact that there are way more, in terms of percentages, English-speaking individuals in Quebec who have university degrees but their unemployment rate is higher.

As an example, we know that the English-speaking population represents close to 14% of the Quebec population, but less than 4% of the workforce within the provincial government. We don't know exactly why this is so, because we have very few studies indicating whether they apply to these positions.

It's just an indication, but for sure, the characteristics of the English-speaking population can explain that, but—

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Would you say that since there is this serious poverty going on, these people are falling through the cracks and are not getting the assistance that they need?

We've heard from other witnesses, service organizations that cater directly to anglophone services, like Youth Employment Services, QCGN, which works with these groups on the ground. They told the committee that they aren't getting the resources they need to serve the needs of the poorest in the province, in terms of anglophones.

I know that you're in statistics, but would you have any recommendations with respect to meeting these challenges, to better integrate immigrant populations that are coming in? If the organizations that serve them were better financed, better taken care of, and better coordinated, wouldn't this go toward meeting the challenge? Would you agree with that?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I cannot actually state—

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I know you can't.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

—or propose any answer, but what I can definitely say is that in terms of studies on the English-speaking population in Quebec, there certainly aren't enough studies on this specific topic.

If we had more information and more analyses to really understand these challenges, then I would probably be in a better position to inform those who are more likely to develop programs and policies.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

In other words, finer detail, finer tracking of different factors.