Official Languages Committee on March 26th, 2015

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

That’s quite positive.

[Jacques Dubé]

It’s not too bad. It is quite a significant pool of the population. Clearly, the challenge is figuring out whether we can keep up the same level of education and the same number of students who come from abroad. They actually come from Africa, Haiti, all over the world. The challenge is to figure out whether we can keep that tap turned on. That is one of our challenges.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Gourde, go ahead.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses and especially to Marie-France Kenny.

Marie-France, ever since you started working with the committee and elsewhere, I have felt that you deserve our utmost admiration. I hope your future projects will bring you other challenges that will measure up to what you have contributed to our country so far.

Let me go back to our current study. We want to help official language minority communities—especially the francophone communities in some provinces—to retain immigrants. Several witnesses have told us—and please let me know whether they were right—that the key factor encouraging immigration is the economic factor, that is, when they feel that they can obtain jobs.

Unfortunately, some witnesses have told us that even francophone entrepreneurs don’t always consider having another francophone to fill a position because they are looking for skills. They might decide to favour a bilingual employee or an anglophone. I find that a little disheartening.

We want our official language minority communities to be able to survive and grow. Efforts are being made in terms of culture and the quality of life, but it seems that is as far as they go. Immigrants move for jobs and go to other provinces. Not all of them can stay near the communities with the critical mass that allows francophones to live in French. In addition, we have learned that this is not a consideration for entrepreneurs, unfortunately. Basically, if communities don’t find a way to attract them, I am not sure what we are going to do.

Could you comment on that?

[Marie-France Kenny]

Actually, as I said earlier, I myself am an entrepreneur. All my employees are bilingual and we provide bilingual services in Saskatchewan.

That being said, whether you are a francophone or anglophone employer, you need an incentive. What is the benefit of hiring a plant worker who speaks French and English if the plant is small and does not work at a national or international level? What is the benefit then of telling employers that we will help them recruit people who speak French and English?

There is no denying it. If a person settles in Regina, it is very likely that they will be working in English. A basic knowledge of English is therefore needed. We let francophone immigrants know that. Language training is also provided in a number of our institutions.

Earlier, Mr. Nicholls talked about the Desrochers case, the CALDECH case. As a result, we know that, under the legislation, federal programs designed for the anglophone majority must be adapted for minority francophone communities and for anglophone communities in Quebec.

Let me give you a concrete example. Under a government program, you are entitled to funding if you have 500 participants. It is highly unlikely that you will obtain funding in Regina, just because you will not have 500 participants. The fact remains that under part VII of the Official Languages Act, federal programs must be adapted according to the specific needs of communities.

It is important to be able to hand out a carrot. There was one with the francophone significant benefit program. With that program, the idea was to find an employer a francophone employee who also spoke English. As a result, a labour market opinion was not necessary, which meant significantly less red tape for the employer and fewer fees. Employers agreed to hire francophones. We were really making up ground.

I was listening to Mr. Dubé earlier. I’m happy that the number is 15% in Moncton, because that is my former city. We hear talk about 38% francophones in Moncton, but we must raise the target to 38% because, if we don’t meet it, the percentage will keep on dropping. We also say that the percentage in New Brunswick must not fall under 33%. In my community, the percentage is 5%. Soon the federal government will no longer provide French-language services there. Do you think the province will continue to provide us with French-language services if the federal government no longer provides them?

In Saskatchewan, we do not have legislation on bilingualism, we only have a policy that refers to the concept of “where numbers warrant”. We also have the schools. That is where we are. We need to find a way to do more for francophones, just like we did with the legislation on diversity. We took the positive recruitment approach to fill the gaps within organizations. We need to do the same for francophones.

Mr. Dubé's suggestion to give more points to francophones is excellent. It is unfortunate that your colleague has left the room. In his view, more and more francophones are interested. However, we learned yesterday that, when people use the express entry program, there is no way of knowing whether they are francophone. We are able to know whether they speak English and French, but not whether they are francophone. As a result, I don’t know how we can say that francophones are very interested based on the express entry program. It is impossible to tell.

We are holding discussions with the department. We would like a significant number of additional points to be given to francophones who settle in a community. The provinces also have the nominee program. There is one in Saskatchewan and one in New Brunswick. Why is there no federal nominee program that would allow the government to consider the big picture when a person is francophone and qualified?

It is a matter of jobs for us as well. We want these people to come and settle in our communities, not for EI benefits but for jobs. We want to do our part. However, we need incentives but we have lost them all. In addition, our communities are no longer promoted. In express entry, there is absolutely no indication that there are francophones outside Quebec.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Does anyone else have anything to add?

[Daniel Sigouin]

RDEE Ontario is trying to use the Canadian francophonie as an increasingly stronger economic driver internationally. That can support, if you will, the economic development strategies used by communities.

To give you a few figures, in 2014, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie identified 274 million French speakers in the world compared to 220 million in 2010. So there has been a 25% increase in four years. A study by Natixis Bank, republished by Forbes magazine, advances the hypothesis that, by 2050, French will be the most widely spoken language in the world, more than English and Mandarin—perhaps Ms. Kenny’s long-awaited dream—with 750 million speakers.

In a context where the world’s francophonie is experiencing an unprecedented demographic growth and with the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement that will hopefully come into effect soon, RDEE Ontario is trying, as I said earlier, to use those assets as increasingly more efficient economic drivers on an international scale.

Businesses that include a cohort of bilingual francophones in their workforce planning will clearly have an advantage on the world’s francophone markets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Are there any other questions?

Mr. Williamson.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses here with us, and especially to Ms. Kenny.

I will start with Mr. Dubé, but perhaps I can ask several other questions for the many people here in the room.

Mr. Dubé, you talked about the numbers for Moncton. The percentage of francophone immigrants has gone from 9% in 2006 to 18% today, so it has doubled. What needs to be done for this number to double again from 18% to 36%? We are looking for broad ideas. I know this is a difficult task, but what tools do you need that the federal government and our province of New Brunswick might be able to provide?

[Jacques Dubé]

I will go back to the early 2000s, or even the late 1990s. Economic development was then based on attracting businesses. We were running after everyone and their dog: businesses, call centres, manufacturers and high-tech industries. There was a boom.

As you know, I was involved in New Brunswick’s economic development. At the time, I was actually the deputy minister responsible for the development of the province. I saw the economic growth at that time because our efforts were geared toward attracting existing businesses and helping them grow. Things are different today. Economic development has become a way to attract individuals, more people.

Basically, even in Moncton, as I mentioned in my presentation, we need at least 1,500 immigrants a year just to maintain our growth. That is the minimum. In fact, if you look at our recent analyses, we need over 2,000 people a year.

Right now, there is a labour shortage and a shortfall. Our forecast is that there will be a shortage of 3,000 people to fill the positions available in Moncton’s businesses in 2016. So there will be 3,000 unfilled positions in Moncton.

Therefore, we have an unemployment problem and a labour shortage at the same time.

That is the situation we are in.

In terms of what the federal government could do, I would say that the roadmap is an excellent program, which we are using to our benefit. We also enjoy the fact that New Brunswick has Bill 88, which gives us guaranteed rights. The other provinces don't have that. They could perhaps take action in that sense.

Economic development agencies, such as ACOA, should review their ways of doing things in this area by helping communities and municipalities set up very targeted programs to attract people from outside.

In Moncton, we have been successful because we have partnered with the province. We are helping the province to implement its francophone immigration strategy. We participated in developing the strategy and we are using it. We also work with Citizenship and Immigration Canada. We all work together to achieve the objectives that we set.

Earlier, we talked about express entry, which uses a point system. Quebec does not have an immigration problem right now. I think the immigration problem in Quebec has more to do with refugees than immigrants. In New Brunswick, we would love to have an immigration problem with refugees, but that is not the case. New Brunswick needs immigrants.

Rural regions in Canada must take positive steps on behalf of official language minority communities. Moncton has 130,000 residents. It is true that our economy is growing, but we still need to see what could be done in terms of economic development through ACOA and other economic development agencies such as Western Economic Diversification Canada and FedNor. Those agencies could review their approach to support the work being done to attract people.

In my comments, I said that the mortality rate has exceeded the birth rate in New Brunswick. In Moncton, it is the other way around, but everywhere else, that is what is happening. I am sure the same is true for Saskatchewan.

We need to do something to help those people. I think other federal departments, not just Citizenship and Immigration Canada, have a lot of resources that could help us. I mentioned Canadian Heritage and economic development agencies. We need to work together and form local partnerships. That is why we have developed a local strategy in Moncton. We have brought together ACOA, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Canadian Heritage and all stakeholders to see what we could accomplish together.

If I were you, that is the approach I would take.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay. Thank you.

Mrs. Day, the floor is yours.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all of you for joining us today. It is truly an honour for us to welcome you and be able to have these discussions with you.

Two days ago, I moved a motion before this committee asking to find out the number of people currently in the express entry pool, their country of origin, their languages spoken, including their proficiency in one official language or both, their level of education, and their first language spoken if, of the two first languages, the second language was French.

In the House, I approached Minister Alexander to tell him about the motion and that we wanted him to provide us with those numbers prior to his appearance before the committee, which should be soon. He told me that he didn’t think those numbers really existed, but that he was going to do his best to obtain as much information as possible. He added that he recognized that recruiting francophone immigrants is a problem in this country.

It is an obligation under the law.

Could the members opposite be less noisy, please?

Under the law, there is an obligation to recruit a certain percentage of francophone immigrants and to maintain the linguistic duality. Ms. Kenny, you think that we are heading toward a significant decline in that area.

I have several questions.

Ms. Kenny, your presentation was very intense. You even said:

…more than 98% of the immigrants that Canada welcomes outside Quebec are anglophones, compared to francophone immigration rates of less than 2%... Anything that might have made a real difference to French-language immigration into our communities has been eliminated.

Are we going back to the far-reaching plan of 1840, which was designed to assimilate the francophones in this country outside Quebec at all costs?

[Marie-France Kenny]

I'm not saying that it is done intentionally. However, even if that isn't the case, we couldn't do it more efficiently. I'm not saying that what is happening is being done on purpose. I'm saying that things aren't working. We are at the point of doing whatever it takes. We must find a solution together. We don't think the government should do everything. For several years now, we have been there to recommend solutions and changes. We would like to sit down with these people to find solutions.

Officials have been saying no for almost two years, but finally, last November, things changed. However, express entry was to come into effect in January. We were told that it was too late, given that phase 1 was over, and we would see in phase 2.

The minister himself told me on March 2 that he was very disappointed in the numbers for 2014. Moreover, he hasn't been able to tell us yet. I imagine that's because he did not want to shock us further. He said himself that he is very disappointed. We see that he wants it, but that nothing is being done. We're told, “We'll see. We will make an announcement eventually”. We've been living with the eventuality that things will change for 10 years, but nothing is working. We are on a decline and, at some point, we will simply disappear.

It's now or never, and this doesn't just mean doing new things, but fixing the harm done in the past 20 years where 3,000 francophones have arrived outside Quebec. I have the impression that they are almost all in Moncton. During that time, Canada has received 250,000 anglophones across the country.

We aren't asking the government to do it all itself. We need to take the time and take a step back to sit down together and develop a strategy. This work needs to be done in cooperation with the municipalities, the provinces, the communities, the community organizations, the employers and, of course, the federal government. But, we don't want to be told that a little program is being established and that it will be announced soon. It's time to admit that an announcement isn't going to bring more people to our communities.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Dubé, you said that there was a 9% increase in francophone immigration to Moncton, which is great. Congratulations to your city on that. However, your population is decreasing. In fact, your population had about 2,000 fewer people in 2014. The population of New Brunswick is about 754,000. The call centres, which require bilingualism, are one of your sources of retention, and that's excellent. It would be very good if we could do more in our communities to ensure bilingualism. Your university also encourages retention. But this isn't the case across the country.

New rules have been adopted that require paying to receive interns, completing a large number of new forms and considering the responsibilities of future interns.

Have you considered the impacts of these new rules?

[Jacques Dubé]

No, we haven't looked at it in depth. Our approach is to try to help entrepreneurs who want to hire someone. We try to reduce their paperwork as much as possible. For example, when there are job fairs, we offer positions and try to navigate the whole process for them.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I think recruiting newcomers is done internationally, particularly in Belgium. However, it is my understanding that this does not affect temporary workers, but only individuals who enter through the express entry program.

[Jacques Dubé]

I think that's right.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

So there's no increase in that area.

Of the number of temporary workers you deal with, do some of them apply to become immigrants? Do you have any data on that?

[Jacques Dubé]

We don't have any data on that, but it's clear that some of them want to stay. Actually, there are very few temporary workers in Moncton. They are mainly in the regions, including in Kent County in the northeast, near Mr. Williamson's riding, where there are fish plants.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Chisu, go ahead please.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dubé, thank you for your testimony.

I will continue in English because my French isn't very good.

I would like to ask all of you this. With which countries is Canada in competition to attract francophone immigrants? What countries are having a lot of success attracting francophone immigrants? What are they doing differently from Canada?

[Jacques Dubé]

Our competition, frankly, is in French-speaking nations. France itself has lots of francophone immigrants from Morocco and other places in Africa, for example. A lot of immigrants go there, so we are in competition with France. I would say any French-speaking nation would be our competition at the end of the day.

[Roukya Abdi Aden]

Every country around the world, and not just countries of the Francophonie, are looking for qualified employees, period.

You can be francophone and speak other languages. I'm francophone, but I can also work in other languages, including Arabic. I could immigrate to an Arabic-speaking country were I offered a job. I would do it, but I'm francophone. I would be drawn to a quality of life. It's true that Canada is competing with francophone countries looking for great minds, but the same is true of other countries looking for qualified candidates. Canada is in general competition.

What do the other countries do better than us? They give themselves the means to attract these candidates. What's happening today is that we are not giving ourselves the means to attract these francophone candidates. We aren't giving ourselves the means to compete with these countries.

People don't just go to France and Belgium. That's all well and good, but there are other countries within the francophonie. There are plenty of candidates in other countries of the francophonie who would be qualified for a position here. I was recently told that there were 28,000 positions to fill in British Columbia. Why couldn't francophone candidates from various Francophonie countries fill those positions? We shouldn't be closing any doors, but opening them to all opportunities. There are people in every country of the francophonie who speak French and who have the skills to fill these positions. We need to be able to go and find people where they are, and give ourselves the resources to go to those countries.

Daniel was just telling me that Quebec is everywhere in France these days. Quebec doesn't go only to Paris; it goes to all the job fairs in France. It goes to other countries, as well. But where does Destination Canada go? To Paris and Brussels once a year. In the meantime, we aren't building any other relationships, and we aren't going to any other fairs. Nothing is being done. We don't have the resources to do this enormous amount of work. We need to have the resources to attract them. I am convinced that there are francophone candidates in every Francophonie country who could fill vacant positions in Canada, but we need to want to do it.

[Marie-France Kenny]

I would quickly like to add something to that. If I'm not mistaken, there are 67 member countries in the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie. So there is competition. Even here, in Canada, Quebec is most certainly a competitor.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I'm sorry, but I would like to say that there are some members of the Francophonie from my original country, la Roumanie, which is not a French-speaking country. They are people for whom it is not a mother tongue, but they speak French because in Europe you need to speak many foreign languages. I speak German, Italian, and so on. French is a little bit shaky for me. I need to think in Italian to speak French.

The fact is this. I am just looking at the example of Moncton. It made an impression on me how they succeeded in increasing the number of francophone people, bilingualism, and so on, but I think this success is connected with jobs and the economy. For example, in one of the largest provinces, which is my province of Ontario, I think there are opportunities to do the same thing eventually, but we need to have cooperation between the communities, the municipalities, the province, and the federal government.

We cannot expect that the federal government alone can have millions of road maps for everything. If we are not working in cooperation with all three levels of government—because there is only one taxpayer—we will not achieve the goal of making the French minority communities prosperous.