Official Languages Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2013

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

I think there was a small but influential group of people who made strong arguments that the early French immersion program was having a negative impact on the English program. Students from higher socio-economic backgrounds, more advantaged students, were going into immersion, leaving the English program défavorisé. That argument, not proven, somehow won the day nonetheless.

The problem, of course, is that the longer you delay immersion, the greater the chances that you're going to exacerbate that problem rather than resolve it. That's why in my brief I talked about, and I noticed my Edmonton colleagues also talked about, the importance of putting supports in place so that all students, regardless of their ability levels, will be enticed to enrol, or parents will be enticed to enrol their children. Once they're there, they can have the supports so they can stay.

Unless we do that, I think we're going to be faced with these same criticisms again and again. We'll be going around this again for another five years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Williamson, go ahead.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Is it Mr. Dicks or Professor Dicks?

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

Professor Dicks, Mr. Dicks—

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you. I just want to make sure. I'm going to call you Professor, if that's okay, but I thought it would be better to be safe than sorry, as I've learned around here.

In case you don't know, I'm a member from New Brunswick. I found your testimony to be very helpful, particularly on some of the history.

I'm going to have you clarify a few points.

Your first recommendation—and this one is clear, I think—is to promote the opportunities for learning a second language at an early age. It's a criticism of the change in New Brunswick, and you would suggest that it's better to begin in grade 1. Is that correct?

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

That's right.

If you can offer only one program, offer an early one. That's essentially what I'm saying.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Yes, fair enough.

I referenced Monsieur Godin earlier. This might surprise him, but just to show that we're not always on the opposite side of the fence, I agree with your stance in terms of the province. I think the bilingual program in New Brunswick should begin at grade 1 and be maintained there. That will surprise you, I know, because I went through that same program, and I do understand the importance, and I do think the earlier the better for young minds.

Your recommendations are interesting, and I want to make sure I understand them. You're saying that you would advise the federal government to urge the province to pool resources. Did I hear that correctly?

What was the recommendation on the side of increased access, or increased budget dollars?

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

The recommendation was that the federal government support early French immersion as the most inclusive program option, and ensure that supports are in place for teachers and students so that learners of a broader range of abilities enter into and remain in the early French immersion program.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Right.

To be clear, I'm trying to get a sense of what that implies. I'm trying to mine this for data in terms of some of your findings. Are you suggesting that there should be some pressure on the Province of New Brunswick, a nudge from the federal government in Ottawa, to look at lowering that age?

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

I understand that the federal government doesn't control the education policies of the provinces, but obviously, if there were significant dollars supporting official language education, I would think the federal government would want to make sure those dollars were spent so that the widest range of students of varying abilities could take advantage of those programs. Whatever targeted funding provided to provinces so that supports can be put in place for teachers and students of a wide range of abilities to succeed would be a positive thing.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Again, I'm not hostile to your recommendations; I'm just trying to understand them better. You're right. Obviously, from a taxpayer point of view, we want to get the best value we possibly can for taxpayers. I would say that we already contribute significantly to provinces across the country, including New Brunswick, which actually benefits disproportionately because of the linguistic makeup of the province and its bilingual character.

Are you saying that we should nudge them to go a little further, that we should put more dollars on the table? I might give you a hard time about that one.

What exactly are you suggesting? Is it that you would like to see Ottawa encourage the province to start at an earlier age, or you'd like to see more dollars on the table? What exactly do you think would help in the situation?

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

I would like to see funding targeted at an early entry program that can provide the opportunities for the widest range of students, rather than a later starting program that benefits a smaller range of abilities.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Fair enough. On that you'll have no disagreement from me. Mr. Godin has gone. I hope he hasn't sent out a press release on this. I was just going to say, and the chair will appreciate this, that I speak for myself and not for the government.

Thank you very much and I appreciate your time, Professor.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Mr. Williamson.

Ms. St-Denis, you have the floor.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

My question is for Ms. Leclair, from the Edmonton Public School Board.

How do you explain the success of immersion programs? What has led to such a success in this area in your province?

[Valérie Leclair]

I can speak more so for the success within our own school boards. As I had mentioned, in 2001 the Commissioner of Official Languages, an MLA, and our superintendent of schools met to discuss the decline in numbers within our school district in French immersion to the point where it was becoming quite drastic. A promise was made at that point from our superintendent that we would double our numbers within 10 years, and we have done that successfully. From that discussion in 2001 there was a survey done of parents and staff. That meant teachers, principals, educational assistants, students, and consultants. They surveyed to see what may be some of the issues we are facing that could be stopping us from increasing our numbers, and from having such a successful program.

In 2002 we came up with what we call the French language renewal project. From that study we developed some recommendations for what a successful language program looks like. With those three years, and the recommendations that were made, we proceeded to start to implement those recommendations to improve our programs. I'll speak to a few of those if you like.

One of the things we found was very helpful for us is we had a very strong board of trustees. Our superintendent and our central leadership staff were very strong and very supportive of the French language programs in our district. From that recommendation as well we developed a very strong consultant core. We were a core of approximately six consultants, which is the largest in Canada if not in North America to this date. We worked together as a team to implement the recommendations that were indicated in the report.

What we found is that we needed to align the French immersion program goals with national and international guidelines. One of the things we looked at was providing a target proficiency level for our students to achieve; that is, when students get to grade 6, grade 9, or grade 12, what it looks like, what it sounds like, where they should be in all skill areas of communication.

We also felt there needed to be a provision of enhanced resources. That did not just mean materials, but it meant access to consultants who could work with them for professional development, for developing leadership capacity within the schools and the district. We looked at different technology that we could use in the classrooms and in the schools.

Another area we looked at was providing opportunities for students to embrace French outside of the classroom. We often hear from students, “French? That's in the classroom. It doesn't matter; when I leave the classroom there's nothing.” We knew there was a huge gap there, so we actually worked a lot with the francophone boards within Edmonton. We developed some partnerships with the Alliance française of Edmonton. We actually participated in many activities that were happening in our small francophone community. These were such things as attending L'UniThéâtre, which has plays in French. They would go to the French restaurant, or they would visit the cabanes à sucre. They were always welcomed in these situations. It was very interesting to see how our students reacted to that.

Further on down the line we also became involved with French for the future with the Youth Ambassador Program, with their youth forum. Our students participated in that. Just last year we sent one student to France on a program through the French Embassy in Canada called Génération Bilingue where that student spent a month in France looking at the different historical sites. There was a group with them from all over the world.

Another area, as I mentioned, is local, national, and international partnerships. We had musicians come in. We had local authors come in. Of course, it was at no cost to the district because these were part of our partnerships.

Actually one of our strongest areas is we developed a comprehensive set of policies and regulations. Right from the get-go the recommendations that the report had made were implemented into policies and regulations that our schools had to follow. With that was also a mandate for our students to start core French in grade 4 and study that until grade 9. That has helped a lot as well.

As well, we've looked at provincial certification and staff language proficiency assessments.

I could go on but you probably want to ask more questions.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You seem to be doing a very effective job; it is very interesting. Are you in touch with other school boards in your province or in other provinces where there are immersion programs? Do you consult with them?

[Valérie Leclair]

Yes, absolutely.

I'm very excited to speak to the Alberta French Language Education Consortium, which was part of our French language renewal that was implemented in 2004. All the other school districts within the province were invited into the consortium, as well as organizations such as, Canadian Parents for French, Alliance Française, and others. This is a place where we meet three times a year to discuss common issues or areas that we would like to work on within the province. That's very exciting.

We do not have as much ability to work outside the province with other districts but we do work very strongly with the Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers, and also ACPI, the French immersion association.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Madame St-Denis and Madame Leclair.

We'll now go to Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for being here.

Professor Dicks, you are obviously doing a lot of research on various projects and various things associated with the French language. I notice you have a lot of Ph.D. students, etc.

How has French education teaching evolved over the last 15 to 20 years?

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

One of the big changes we have seen involves the whole notion of literacy and multi-literacy in language learning. Whereas 10 or 15 years ago we were much more focused on learning an individual language and looking at that language as an entity, today we're much more interested as researchers and as teachers in how languages work together and complement one another.

One of the questions that I mentioned at the end of my presentation was about one of our doctoral students who is looking at how students' first or second language can help them learn French, and vice versa of course, how French can then help with students' development of their first and second language. That whole interconnection among languages and viewing literacy as a broader concept and not language specific is a big change. We're seeing quite a big emphasis on that, as well as an emphasis in research in looking at the benefits. For example, one of my students is looking at how students are learning to read. As I mentioned, we no longer have a grade 1 entry immersion program in New Brunswick. It was postponed until grade 3. This means they come in already having learned to read in English.

From a language teaching point of view, while I would like students to begin earlier, it does create some interesting opportunities for understanding how languages work and work together; how the students' ability to learn to read in English, for example, affects their ability to learn to read and write in French, and does learning to read and write in French have a positive impact on their first language reading and writing as well. This whole interconnectivity and literacy as a broader concept is a big one.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

A follow-up to that is technical French. When I looked at the programs that are available for people to learn engineering, aeronautics, computers, etc., at university, there is a very limited choice in the French language. That's going to impact industry in Quebec. We recently visited the aerospace sector. Pratt & Whitney, Bombardier, Bell Canada, etc., are predicting that they will need an increase of something like 30% more employees because of the growth of their industry.

How do you think this is going to play out in getting the right technical skills available for these companies to be able to continue to grow their businesses and the economy in general?

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

That's really not my area of expertise.

One thing I do know is if we have strong French immersion programs in our schools, particularly at the secondary level, and we can retain more of those students, and particularly have students in the sciences continuing with French, the opportunity to feed into those kinds of programs is going to be greatly enhanced. Granted, those programs have to be there, but the design of French for specific purposes programs is out of my area of expertise. I think we can do a lot at the secondary level at least, if we put more effort into providing students with more options to help in that regard.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

You're not researching into what's happening at the higher levels of education where people need technical skills.

[Dr. Joseph Dicks]

No. That's not my area of research.