Evidence of meeting #104 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cynthia Baker  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing
Ashley Pelletier-Simard  Director of Bilingualism and Translation, Canadian Nursing Students' Association
Sylvie Larocque  Director, School of Nursing, Laurentian University, As an Individual
Michelle Lalonde  Professor, School of Nursing of the Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Liette-Andrée Landry  Professor, Faculty of Nursing, Shippagan campus, Université de Moncton, As an Individual
Pierre Godbout  Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), we are continuing our study on issues relating to French-language training in the field of nursing in Canada.

We apologize for the delay with the witnesses. We had to vote in the House, and I have the feeling that there will be another vote soon. Unless I'm mistaken, there is half an hour of speeches in the House, from 4:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. The bells will ring, and then the vote will take place around 5:00 p.m. So we'll have to end the meeting around 4:45 p.m.

Between now and then, we'll let you make your presentations of about 10 minutes, then the committee members will ask you questions or make comments.

We will start right away.

Go ahead.

4:10 p.m.

Dr. Cynthia Baker Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

We'll try to go as quickly as possible.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Not to quickly, because the interpreters have to be able to follow you.

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Dr. Cynthia Baker

Very well.

The Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing, or CASN, is seeking the support of stakeholder here today in order to find the best possible solution to maintain access to health care in French in francophone communities outside Quebec.

I will begin with a brief summary of the situation and steps taken to date to find solutions.

With your permission, I will continue in English so that members of the College of Nurses of Ontario can follow my comments.

There's evidence of low pass rates among francophone nursing students on the American entry-to-practice exam, and this is putting access to health care in French at risk in francophone communities outside of Quebec. It's also putting francophone nursing education at risk outside of Quebec. Many francophones who wish to become nurses are choosing to enrol in English programs because of concerns related to the exam. The issue has revolved around translation and a lack of preparatory resources. At my association, we have received many complaints about the translation. I understand that there have been some improvement, but this has been an issue.

The translation company is Geo Group Corporation translation services in Madison, Wisconsin. It does translations globally in multiple languages, primarily for commercial businesses. Their method is translation rather than adaptation. We've learned from federal translators and from psychometricians in Canada that adaptation is a rigorous, more specialized process, and it's recommended required for high-stakes exams in both languages, to ensure equity.

Unfortunately, although there have been improvements, I believe, to the existing translation, I understand that it's not really sufficient to ensure an equivalent exam. I think an important point to realize is that the translation is not a once and for all thing that happens. The exam questions are being continuously developed, continuously updated, and the exam test plan is being continuously updated. It's really not just a question of improving the existing translation, then, but of ensuring that there's a methodology going forward that ensures an adequate, equitable translation.

An adaptation is more expensive, I understand, than a basic translation, but it is what is used in Canada.

I want to mention also that another issue with this linguistic aspect, the translation, is that Canadians now form 20% of the panels developing test questions. The Americans are 80%, and there are 20% Canadians. The group excludes, however, any francophone with limited English abilities, because the work is done in English. This excludes francophone nurses from participating.

Returning to the second question, the lack of preparatory resources, there are multiple commercial resources available in English. The NCSBN, which is the organization that owns and sells the exam, offers commercial online prep courses and prep modules. Many of these resources are computer-based, they're sophisticated, and they are used extensively in schools in the United States and are now used extensively in anglophone schools across Canada.

We've just done an analysis of schools that have undergone accreditation in the last two years to see what use has been made of these preparatory resources, and it's large. They are used to evaluate students throughout the program. They are also used to replace some kinds of courses, so they're integrated into the curriculum.

With respect to solutions to date, we wrote to NCSBN requesting that the exam have the questions in both English and French, so that if a francophone student has difficulty understanding the French, they can refer to the English, and that would tip them off. That's often done in high-stakes exams in Canada.

We didn't get a response, but I have learned—and I believe this is correct, although I can't verify it—that their computer software doesn't allow for that function of toggling between languages. However, the high-stakes exam software that we use in this country does allow for that type of toggling between French and English.

The other thing we requested is that they make available preparatory resources in French. They wrote to us last June, I think, and said they were putting together a preparatory exam in French, and I understand they've been working on it. I don't know that it's out yet, but they have been working on that exam.

We do have a concern going forward. I think this will be helpful, but it will not be at the same level of sophistication as these commercial resources that are being used. Our concern in the future is that the exam does get revised. We have information that they're testing a new type of question, to test clinical judgment and this sort of thing. We predict that this will result in a lot more preparatory resources to help people understand those kinds of questions or answer these questions well, but will they be available in French? As we go forward, will there be commercial products available in French?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Dr. Baker, we are already at seven minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Dr. Cynthia Baker

Okay. I'm so sorry. I've taken too long.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Would anyone else like to take a minute to speak?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Dr. Cynthia Baker

In that case, I'm finished.

I'll turn things over to my colleagues now.

4:20 p.m.

Ashley Pelletier-Simard Director of Bilingualism and Translation, Canadian Nursing Students' Association

My name is Ashley Pelletier-Simard, and I am the director of Bilingualism and Translation with the Canadian Nursing Students' Association.

I'm currently a student at Dalhousie University in Halifax, and I am starting my last year in the advanced standing nursing program.

I graduated from a francophone secondary school, and I am very fortunate to be a Canadian citizen who speaks both languages fluently. However, I chose to continue my studies in English. Not all students have the opportunity to study in English. Yet it's our right as Canadians to have access to services in the language of our choice.

I asked my francophone committee members about their experience to date. They told me they were disappointed that in 2018 there were still language problems in a country that claims to be proud to be bilingual.

As far as the NCLEX exam is concerned, you will easily understand how difficult and frustrating it can be to learn a subject in French, relearn it in English and end up taking an exam in French. This examination is translated by Americans without taking into account the turns of phrase, a crucial element in such an important examination.

Many students in northern New Brunswick do not have the opportunity to adequately prepare for the exam, as they don't understand English and all preparatory materials are in English. They are disappointed that they don't have access to the same services in their native language.

The University of Regina's La Cité campus and the University of Alberta will launch a bilingual nursing program in 2018. These will be classes of fewer than 15 students.

Why are so few students enrolling in a program that would improve the quality of their nursing services? The answer is simple: all students want the opportunity to pass, but the French version of the NCLEX exam and the French preparatory material leave much to be desired.

A change must be made in the administration of this exam before other students decide, like me, not to pursue their studies in their native language or choose another career because the risk of failing is too high.

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Ms. Pelletier-Simard.

Ms. Larocque, you have the floor.

4:20 p.m.

Sylvie Larocque Director, School of Nursing, Laurentian University, As an Individual

Good afternoon. My name is Sylvie Larocque. I'm the director of the School of Nursing at Laurentian University.

Aside from the NCLEX-RN exam, things haven't changed. In the past, 80% to 100% of francophone students at Laurentian University chose to take the national exam in French. Since the NCLEX-RN came along, the opposite is true: 80% to 100% of our students take the exam in English. They say they have no choice. They find it unfair to have to take their program in French for four years, and then feel obliged to study and write the exam in English.

The reason they give is that they don't have access to resources in French. They also hear their colleagues trying to take the exam in French say that the translation isn't well done and that they don't understand the questions. Moreover, they realize that the success rate of those who take the exam in French isn't the best. Their colleagues don't pass when they take the exam in French, but they pass after taking the exam in English. Students know all the statistics, and they choose to take the exam in English.

When I surveyed the students, they told me that they would take the exam in French if they had a choice. They studied in French, in their mother tongue, and they know all the terminology they used for four years in French. In the survey, I also asked students if, now that they knew or felt they had to take the exam in English, they would still have decided to study in French. To this question, 28% said no, and 28% were unsure. This means that more than half of the students questioned the fact that they had studied in French.

New students are now increasingly reluctant to enrol in the program in French. The rate of participation in this program will therefore decrease, which is contrary to the efforts of Health Canada's Official Language Community Development Bureau, in collaboration with the CNFS, to attract more students to our francophone programs and to increase access to nursing services in French.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Ms. Larocque.

I would ask the next witnesses to be a little more concise, so that my colleagues can have time to speak.

I invite the next witness to go ahead.

4:25 p.m.

Michelle Lalonde Professor, School of Nursing of the Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

My name is Michelle Lalonde, and I'm from the University of Ottawa.

Our university offers several nursing programs, including an entry to the profession program in French or English. The two programs are exactly the same, the content is identical, the admission criteria are completely the same. However, on the anglophone side, the pass rate for the NCLEX-RN exam is 86%, compared to 57% on the francophone side.

Another of our concerns is the marked decrease in the number of francophones taking the exam in French. In 2017, last year, only seven of our students chose to write the exam in French. Although the mother tongue of the majority of our students is French, and they prefer to write the exam in that language, they instead choose to do it in English because of the lack of preparatory resources in French, they feel the translation of the exam is poor and they are afraid of failing the exam in French.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much.

Let's move on to the next witness.

4:25 p.m.

Liette-Andrée Landry Professor, Faculty of Nursing, Shippagan campus, Université de Moncton, As an Individual

Good afternoon. I am Liette Andrée Landry, and I'm from northeastern New Brunswick.

I want to point out that few of my students are comfortable in English, and that they are mostly Francophones. Rather than repeat what others have said, I will bring the following to your attention. After our program was restructured, over 95% of our students who wrote the Canadian exam in 2014 passed, which was above the national average at the time. After the arrival of the American exam, however, this rate dropped to about 20%. Depending on where you are in New Brunswick, the success rate remains between 20% and 30% for students who take the exam for the first time.

I want to make it clear that the program we offer today is exactly the same as in 2014, and that the type of student taking this exam has remained unchanged. The only element that has changed since 2014 is the entry-to-practice exam.

Obviously, we would like to find a solution that would not only suit our students and nurses in New Brunswick, but that could also apply to other francophones elsewhere in Canada.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Mrs. Landry.

Mr. Godbout, the floor is yours.

4:25 p.m.

Pierre Godbout Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton, As an Individual

As you know, the New Brunswick Commissioner of Official Languages has just ruled that the Nurses Association of New Brunswick has violated the provincial Official Languages Act.

I will quote from the report:

… There is indeed a significant gap in the exam preparation resources available to one linguistic community compared to the other. Whereas there is only one French-language question bank tool, with no simulation exam and a limited number of practice questions, there is a vast array of high quality English-language exam simulations that are commercially available. Therefore, Francophone candidates are not on a level playing field compared to their Anglophone counterparts.…

This clearly demonstrates the situation.

We have started to work with the members of the association. There wasn't much reaction to the commissioner's report. However, we have established a partnership in which we are exploring the possibility of substituting another review. Last year, when the executive director of the association appeared before you, she said that the association was ready to look at other resources. Indeed, our provincial association has the authority to adopt another review, and we are currently working on a solution that we believe we can launch in September 2019.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much, Mr. Godbout.

We're going to slightly revise the amount of time for each colleague to ask questions. We'll go around the table with three minutes each.

We'll begin with Mr. Clarke.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

I'm sorry, the exchanges will be brief, but don't worry; you can send us an email with all the documentation, and we will read what you have to say.

This situation has been discussed in recent articles, and we have been quite surprised. I would like to understand what the situation is.

Ms. Larocque, you mentioned a national exam. Is the NCLEX exam used across Canada or only in New Brunswick?

4:25 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Laurentian University, As an Individual

Sylvie Larocque

It's used in every province except Quebec, where this exam isn't used.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Okay.

Mr. Godbout, you said that the Nurses Association of New Brunswick could unilaterally change the situation right now.

4:25 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton, As an Individual

Pierre Godbout

The circumstances of entry-to-practice, including the nursing practice entrance examination, are under provincial jurisdiction only. All provinces must establish these criteria.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Could a federal professional body impose this decision on the provincial association?

4:30 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton, As an Individual

Pierre Godbout

No. The provincial association must make this decision of its own accord.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Does Brian Gallant, the Premier, have any power in this?