Official Languages Committee on May 30th, 2019

[Raymond Théberge]

Yes, in part. But the appointment process was established differently in the Supreme Court decision on Justice Nadon. In my opinion, a legislative change is needed.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

In the vision you are proposing, the politicians would have to be told what to do.

[Raymond Théberge]

Parliament has to develop the necessary legislation. If we look at it historically, some bills were supported by the opposition but not by the government. But there are some examples.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

These are good answers. Up to now, I like what I am hearing.

Let's move on to real estate assets. This is a huge problem in Canada. It is all very well to hear that there have been 78 contacts. But I was a director general and I can tell you there were no contacts in Nova Scotia. However, I am not going to dwell on that.

We have to establish a way of operating that comes before the pie is divided up or sold. Francophones are not asking for free land. They say that they want to pay the market value. Even in a bilingual country, with this notion of linguistic duality, we have no access to land. Even if I had all the money we needed and our coffers were full, no one can guarantee that I can get a 90-acre lot in British Columbia, for example. We cannot even get one.

How will your vision work to ensure that things happen differently in that regard?

[Raymond Théberge]

Two things. First, the regulations must include a formal mechanism for community consultation. Communities have to be consulted in that situation. Second, this kind of interaction can certainly be specified in the regulations.

However, when I look at some of the specific cases you mention, the community was not even consulted. They went ahead and sold the properties without consulting the community. So there is an obligation to consult, above all.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Should that not happen automatically? If francophones outside Quebec or anglophones in Quebec express a need at provincial or municipal level, they have to be the first to be consulted, or, at least, to be consulted at the same time.

It should go further than consultation, in my opinion. With real property, indigenous people are automatically entitled to a percentage.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alupa Clarke]

They are in fourth place.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

They are in fourth place. We are not even there.

Would the vision you are putting forward lead to that? If so, how?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alupa Clarke]

A 20-second answer, if you please.

[Raymond Théberge]

Once again, I go back to the regulations. In the regulations, we have to determine all the factors that can help to support the vitality of the communities. Whether it is education, access to land or to schools, that has to be part of it. However, we must not forget the consultation mechanism, which must have some teeth.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That is in addition to the rest.

Thank you. They were not easy questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alupa Clarke]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

We now move to Mr. Gourde, who has the floor for six.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Vice-Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Théberge, I am going to take a part of your address and ask you some questions. You said that “federal public servants are not always able to work in the official language of their choice in regions that are designated bilingual”.

Canada is a bilingual country. Our federal institutions are bilingual. When you say that they are not able to work in the language of their choice, that probably means that they are not able to work in French. The converse would surprise me greatly. If some regions are designated bilingual, it means that other regions are designated unilingual. However, our federal institutions are bilingual.

[Raymond Théberge]

I have some comments.

First, when we look at Part V of the act, dealing with the language of work, we see that it mentions geographical regions where you can work in French or in the official language of your choice. Those regions were designated in 1977. Since 1977, the world has completely changed. So all that geography has to be reviewed.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I see where you are going, but I want to go further.

In the next year of your mandate, I challenge you to find any unilingual francophone public servants in Canada. I challenge you. They are practically all anglophone. Just try to find a unilingual francophone.

I live in Lévis, close to Quebec City. In my constituency office in Lévis—Lotbinière, I have met with people who want to work in the federal public service in Quebec City. However, the requirement to know English is quite high. In Quebec City, they all work in French, but they are told that there may be meetings in which they will have to discuss a number of communications in English and that, if they do not reach the level required, they will not be able to work.

I doubt whether it is the same in Toronto. In Toronto, they work in English. If an anglophone’s level of French is not adequate, perhaps they will provide him with courses, which he may never need.

This discriminates against francophones. The opportunities are not equal. Francophones all need to speak English in order to get into public service trades and professions. Francophones are the ones adjusting. Let me give you a simple example: 12 public servants attend a meeting. The first person to speak talks to the others in English. Then the entire meeting carries on in English, even with 11 francophones there. It is always like that.

As part of your mandate, will you be able to encourage those who are making an effort? Often, we talk about problems, but we do not talk about initiatives inside a department. For example, to raise awareness, why not have everyone speak French every Tuesday morning, even at lunch? They have learned French, but they do not use it.

If we are incapable of establishing that in our federal institutions, if we are incapable of setting an example, there is absolutely no reason to continue. There is absolutely no reason to have an Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. You have to promote good practices, and perhaps remind people that they can do more.

[Raymond Théberge]

There are very good examples of initiatives in the public service where people are in fact encouraged to use their second language. In our office, we have developed tools so that we can hold bilingual meetings. We provide training about it. Some departments, like Natural Resources, have prepared their own second-language courses based on the specialized lexicon they use. So there are initiatives.

Generally speaking, in surveys, when we ask public servants whether they feel comfortable if they write in the language of their choice, between 92% and 95% of anglophones say yes but, with francophones, it's only between 67% and 70%. That has not changed for 10 years.

I go back to what I was saying just now. Some complacency has taken hold. We have to find ways of addressing it. We can do so using Part V. We must make sure that we have language training. We have to provide tools and opportunities to use the second language.

We are currently working on a study on language insecurity in the public service, with both francophones and anglophones. It is at an exploratory stage. We are examining the results. It is interesting that anglophones want to have the opportunity to use French, just as francophones want the converse. So it is important to create situations that allow that.

However, for a number of years, less and less language training has been provided, which means that we do not have the tools we need. Work teams are virtual; the way of working is changing.

Clearly, if we want better service in both official languages, public servants must be able to work in the language of their choice.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alupa Clarke]

Thank you, Mr. Gourde.

Mr. Ouellette, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The member spoke in Cree and provided the following translation:]

[Translation]

I want to talk about Bill C-91, An Act respecting Indigenous Languages. There will be a new Commissioner of Indigenous Languages.

What will be your role in the establishment of that office to protect indigenous languages and to ensure they are used in extremely minority situations across Canada?

[Raymond Théberge]

As I have said on a number of occasions, we strongly support the official recognition of Canada’s first languages. We do not want to impose, but, if we are asked, we are certainly ready to help the new commissioner to become established, to explain how we work, and to help him or her understand the obligations.

At the moment, the mandate of the commissioner of indigenous languages—I think there will be more than one—is to promote those languages. That is one thing. Revitalizing them is another. My predecessor met with Mr. Bellegarde. I have often repeated that we will provide the support needed, if we are asked. We are ready to provide all the necessary assistance for that position, those duties, to be successful.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Your office has been in existence for 50 years and is charged with protecting language rights everywhere in the country, for francophones and anglophones alike. What advice would you give to this new office in order to protect indigenous languages? What advice can you offer the indigenous peoples as they establish that office? What should they tackle as a priority?

[Raymond Théberge]

First of all, it is necessary to find out the status of indigenous languages as they exist today. Then, given that, for a number of those languages, urgent action is required, the ones that are in a critical situation must be quickly identified. It is important to raise awareness of, and promote, those languages, by immediately coming to grips with the systemic causes of their decline.

Very often, indigenous languages are not written and they have very few speakers. Nor is there support in terms of education. An immediate action plan must be developed to find out the status of the languages and determine what must be tackled first. That is urgent. You can’t spend three, four, five or six years talking about it. Action is needed immediately.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

You mentioned data. I believe that many indigenous people overestimate their ability to speak a language. It is perhaps the same for francophones, or those who have learned French as a second language outside Quebec. They say they are bilingual, but, in reality, their language level is a little weaker than they think.

Is it the same for indigenous languages? You are an expert in linguistics. Are the data we have today sufficient to allow us to act, or do we really need an in-depth study to understand the current status of indigenous languages?

[Raymond Théberge]

Today,.people talk about three languages in particular: Cree, Inuktitut and Ojibway. Those languages have some vitality, but I do not know whether we have all the data we need in order to consider all indigenous languages.

The work that Statistics Canada does is important for indigenous languages, just as it is for the official languages. We have to know where the speakers are, their age, where they live, and so on. Once we have that picture, we can develop strategies much more easily.

In Manitoba, the Cree spoken in the north is different from what is spoken in the south. It is extremely important to really understand the situation. A lot of studies and statistics go into the consideration of francophone or anglophone minority communities. Over and above those data, there has to be a lot of thought, a field of research, to determine how we can advance the cause of indigenous languages.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I think I have 30 seconds left.