Evidence of meeting #8 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was languages.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Linda Cardinal  Titular Professor, School of Political Studies, University of Ottawa
Jean Delisle  Professor Emeritus, As an Individual
Sylviane Lanthier  Chair, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
Maryse Benhoff  Vice-President, Language Industry Association
Suzanne Bossé  Executive Director, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
Chloé Forget  Committee Researcher

4:45 p.m.

Maryse Benhoff Vice-President, Language Industry Association

Hello.

Thank you for inviting AILIA, the Language Industry Association, to lean in on these important conversations. Here is a quick brief about AILIA.

It was created in 2003, with a mission to increase the visibility of the language industry, promote and advocate for the language industry, increase competitiveness, act as a spokesperson for the industry, share information, and support high standards for quality, as with the development of the national standard CGSB 131.10. All the members of the board, our working board, are all volunteers.

Upon receipt of the request to speak today, we asked the entirety of the AILIA membership for their comments with regard to a few questions, and I will be presenting the responses to these questions.

These were the questions: What has been the impact of machine translation on your business, marketplace, and the Translation Bureau? What has been your experience working with the Translation Bureau? All of these comments are an amalgamation of all of those.

First, we encountered misguided beliefs that machine translation with post-editing can deliver results that are equivalent to professional translation. What we are seeing more and more in the industry is a belief that machine translation with post-editing can deliver results that are equivalent to professional translation or leveraging translation memory tools, which is not true. Clients are prepared to embark on this high-risk technological adventure completely uninformed. No matter how one uses it or looks at it, machine translation remains high-risk technology, for several reasons.

First and foremost, there is no actual translation or communication involved. There is a gross misinterpretation of the term “machine translation” by the public and how it works. As we know, machine translation works strictly by statistical matching, without any human comprehension, knowledge of language, or validation of meaning. As a result, machine translation tools generate all kinds of unpredictable errors and nonsensical output that can also be downright offensive.

We encountered a lack of understanding of the real implications of post-editing. Post-editing involves people reviewing and trying to improve the raw machine translation output, which is extremely tricky because of all the unpredictable mistakes and nonsense, things that you would never encounter in the work of human translators. The industry is faced with a complete lack of understanding by the public of the time involved in post-editing with uncontrolled use of machine translation.

In these discussions, we've heard about the pre-editing and post-editing required to successfully work with machine translation. This information is not in the sphere of understanding, even for many who are experienced translators in the industry. In other words, post-editing is a very different exercise from professional revision. It is a type of work for which there is little or no training. So very different is this work that there is now an ISO standard being prepared, a copy which I have provided to the greffier so that he can circulate it. It's at the DIS stage. I can't provide it to you. Only the link for consultation is available.

It's interesting how it is described. The section about pre-production processes begins with the concept of whether the source language content is suitable for machine translation, differing very much from other tools. Because the subsequent post-editing, combined with machine translation efficiency, depends on the machine translation system, language combination, domain, style, and source language content, this is very complex, which is what I am trying to convey. There is a 20-page standard coming out about it.

It goes further to specify that requirements for post-editing must be identified, documented, and made accessible to the post-editor at the onset of the project. Post-editors must be informed of the level of estimated usefulness of the machine translation output.

The output must also be easily identifiable to the post-editor by way of indication marks to correctly distinguish between machine translation and output from other sources. That is how very different and difficult it is to use pure, raw machine translation.

There were a lot of comments.

We see requests for post-editing often turning into complete retranslation in the marketplace. Our most recent experience shows this happens primarily because most machine translation output is useless. It needs specialists at the onset, specialists using it, specialists programming it, and specialists inputting the information, which brings with it the complexity of explaining to clients that it's not faster or cheaper. This is a necessary burden for the industry in general.

The bottom line is that we're dealing with high risk that brings few efficiency gains when the need is for real translation.

The major strategic mistake is that language experts are made to work downstream, where they must find and fix machine-generated errors and nonsense.

We fully understand the challenges of a nearly exponential rise in translation and multilingual communications needs in society and government as a whole. However, we strongly believe that the self-serve use of machine translation by Government of Canada employees who are not language experts, without any supervision or validation by language experts or stringent policies to prevent the sharing or circulation of machine translation output, entails unacceptable risks that would outweigh the expected benefits and convenience, all of which machine translation does not competently address.

What can we say about machine translation in the hands of the public?

It should be used only for gist translations, such as those Google has long provided. When someone gets the gist of a text they don't understand, it doesn't mean that it's going to be as useful as they think it will be. It can help them make decisions on whether texts are to be translated if the content of the text is such that they want to translate it, or they'll need it, or it's pertinent. Again, it's a bit of a fallacy. We can fall into not understanding sufficient content, even with machine translation.

The tool developed by the Translation Bureau lends itself to misuse and misinterpretation. It's relatively unknown to the industry. I had to knock on the door and ask to be let in to have a demonstration.

From what I saw, it seems to be very basic. It has no bitext ability and no pre-analysis content. It has only a Google-like statistical matching at best. For gisting of the content it's viable, but what is to say that civil servants who have this tool will not use it in their communications?

We've heard all about the phantom units all over the federal government. What is to say that if they're not respecting the actual law, they'll respect the intended use of this tool?

The message or image being sent to the public with this machine translation is that machine translation is now government approved.

As for our recommendations, the first is to educate. Educate parliamentarians, civil servants, and federal employees to start with. Continue to do so with all documentation on the Translation Bureau website. We're presuming this will not go away. Educate them on the philosophy, the concept, and the ultimate uses of machine translation. Educate them about the profession of translators, about revisers, and about post-editing. Educate the Translation Bureau about respecting their intended audience, about the gains and risks, and about creating access without chaos.

Inform the public. We must decide on the value we place on our language heritage and the quality of language with which we want to address our citizens.

We are convinced that any imposed reliance on machine translation post-editing by the Government of Canada is a hazardous strategy that would risk turning a world-renowned area of expertise built over decades into low-quality mass production work unworthy of Canada's proud cultural heritage, its government, its citizens, and its enviable place among the world's developed nations.

It would amount to the gradual destruction of a strong economic sector for Canada involving thousands and thousands of high-skilled jobs. It would be replaced with a low-paying, low-value industry that is likely to move entirely out of the country over time to parts of the world where wages reflect poor standards of living.

To set the record straight, put language experts at the forefront of the process. As we've heard, tools intended to be used for real communication must be put in the hands of professional translators. Therefore, what is required is to put language experts in control upstream of the entire process where they can analyze content and make optimal decisions before processing.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

We're out of time. Could you conclude now?

4:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Language Industry Association

Maryse Benhoff

Well, you have everything in writing anyhow, so it's as you wish. I can stop now and the rest of the recommendations—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you. Maybe we can start with questions and comments right now, and you may be able to provide what you have to say in answering some questions.

4:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Language Industry Association

Maryse Benhoff

Very good.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much.

We will now go immediately to questions, starting with Mrs. Boucher.

Mrs. Boucher, will you be using the full six minutes?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Yes.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

You have six minutes, Mrs. Boucher.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The witnesses have said a lot of things, and many issues keep coming up, but different realities must also be considered.

There is the reality of public servants, who have lengthy documents to translate and who have to render them in perfect French. Then, there is our reality as parliamentarians. When there are debates and the government has to draft speeches, we usually receive the texts through the usual administrative channels.

I experienced this when I was a parliamentary secretary, for official languages and for the status of women. We often received documents five minutes before we had to be in the House. Everything was in English. What choice did we have? We used Google Translate. We tried to get an overview of what the text said. Then we corrected it to the best of our abilities. That is our reality.

My question is the following. The people who spoke to the committee about Portage said that it was not intended to produce documents for wide distribution. So what would be the best way to proceed and to save time, for government workers and for us, as parliamentarians? Things happen quickly. We all have tablets, we receive documents, we share things, and sometimes we do not write very well in French. This is a problem we encounter frequently.

How can an excellent translation be produced if someone writes poorly in the language to begin with?

Mrs. Lanthier and Ms. Bossé, what, in your opinion, would be the best approach and the most effective way of protecting the French language in light of the advent of social media and the speed at which we often have to work in Parliament?

5 p.m.

Chair, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada

Sylviane Lanthier

That is a good question because it brings the issue back to the person who receives documents in one language, and who wants to understand them and carry on with their work. Our understanding is that Portage is a software program intended for unofficial communication that should address this kind of problem. Our question is the following: does using this tool truly address the problem or does it instead create other kinds of problems, which will mean that francophones will end up functioning in English with the help of a translation program rather than functioning in French? Does that really resolve an official languages problem? We have approached it from this perspective rather than in the way you presented it, focusing instead on the philosophical aspect and the impact.

I do not have an ideal solution but I think that, in considering the problem, we should be asking whether both official languages are being well served and whether dealings with the public will be well served. Are we creating a precedent that we will have difficulty coping with in the future? The program might not be used only for unofficial communications in the future. It is clear to us that something has been implemented, or could have been implemented, that raises all kinds of questions. They may not be easy to answer, but we must really take the time to consider how it will be used and to identify the source of the problem, or why it was implemented. What problem was it intended to address? Is this the best way to address that problem?

I have taken a few courses at the HEC and remember something from the management course: the worst decision we can make in addressing a problem is one that creates a problem even greater than the one we initially wanted to resolve.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

You have a point.

5 p.m.

Chair, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada

Sylviane Lanthier

In short, this is perhaps the question we are getting at: are we creating other more serious problems than the one we wanted to address? I am not a public servant and I am not in the situation on a daily basis, but I think the use of both official languages and public servants' right to use their preferred language are truly vital.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much, Mrs. Lanthier.

You have the floor, Mr. Vandal.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their fine presentations.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think that perhaps this tool could be used as an aid to understanding; it should definitely not be used as a communication tool in government though.

Mrs. Lanthier, can you see a role for Portage in government?

April 13th, 2016 / 5 p.m.

Chair, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada

Sylviane Lanthier

Can you repeat the question?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB

Can you see a smaller role for Portage in government, not as a communication tool but perhaps as an aid to understanding?

5:05 p.m.

Chair, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada

Sylviane Lanthier

Based on our current information and understanding, we would not recommend a major role for this tool; I think we have to be careful. We tend to agree with people who say that nothing compares to a human being when it comes to translating what another human being is trying to say and that a machine will not necessarily produce the same results. We have to be careful when considering how this tool will be used in the future. Once again, for a full understanding, we have to look at which needs the tool was intended to address and what problem it was intended to resolve. Is this tool the best way of resolving the problem? We must also remember that the federal government's bilingual capacity has been eroded in recent years, which is also part of the problem.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Ms. Benhoff, you talked about a 20-page standardization document that you have been working on. Can you elaborate on that very quickly, please? Can you share with us how that project is coming along and basically what it is that you're trying to achieve with that document?

5:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Language Industry Association

Maryse Benhoff

ISO responds, obviously, to the marketplace, and experts come together to create standards for the marketplace. Machine translation has been around for a considerable number of years, and post-editing is a reality. The industry now needs to structure itself in order to put best practices in place. That is what the post-editing standard is about.

It will help guide many companies or government organizations, legislatures perhaps, on how to best work with post-editing. An interesting part of the standard is that gisting was removed. Low-quality post-editing was also removed. Anything that would not render as high a quality as a professional translator would is not included in the standard.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

The reason I'm asking is that when they were preparing to launch the tool, l'outil de traduction automatique, that we're looking at, there was no standards guide or user's guide to go with it, so your experience or how you are standardizing your practice may be informative to us as to how you are going to go out on a private site.

5:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Language Industry Association

Maryse Benhoff

I'm sure it will be. I've made it available.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you.

Mrs. Lanthier and Ms. Bossé, the FCFA has expressed concerns about the introduction of this tool. You stated that the erosion of bilingual capacity is already evident in government documents. Can you give us some specific examples?

5:05 p.m.

Chair, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada

Sylviane Lanthier

In my presentation, I mentioned the rayon de bagnole example.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Yes, do you have others? We have heard that the tool is not intended to translate expressions. We all have our own expressions in various parts of the country. There are many in my colleague's region.

Do you have any other examples?

5:05 p.m.

Chair, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada

Sylviane Lanthier

One simply has to read the reports published by Commissioner of Official Languages in recent years. In an appearance before a Senate committee in 2013-14, the commissioner spoke about the subtle erosion of bilingualism in the public service owing to the transfer of federal offices from bilingual regions to unilingual ones. He spoke about the downgrading of the linguistic requirements of bilingual positions. He mentioned the pressure on public servants to produce documents in English only and the tendency to offer an insufficient number of training programs in French.

These are factors highlighted by the Commissioner of Official Languages. Another publication released by the commissioner's office in 2016 states that, during the budget cuts in 2011-12, Treasury Board did not give any guidelines to the public servants responsible for analyzing the implementation of the cuts or indicate how they should go about considering the potential impact of the cuts on official languages. That was also mentioned in writing.

For our part, we have received documents drafted in English only in the past year. We have filed complaints with the Commissioner of Official Languages. On two occasions, we were addressed in English only when we called departmental offices. We also found unacceptable translations on certain departmental websites. These are recent examples.