Official Languages Committee on March 2nd, 2018

[Carol-Guillaume Gagné]

That is a good question.

This gives me an opportunity to speak, finally; I am pleased. That's it, you won't have a choice, now you are going to have to come visit us.

That said, we were not really consulted on this, but we don't necessarily have to look at things from that angle. We aren't all playing by the same rules. In certain regions, we do not have a critical mass of francophones.

We need quality services. As we were saying earlier, for our communities to be vibrant, we have to be able to experience and appreciate the culture, and it is often the peripheral organizations that instill life into the culture. For our families to be interested in taking part in these activities, we have to offer them activities that are equal in quality to the ones offered to the majority. We have to remember that 70% of our families are exogamous. In that way, they are already a part of the majority, and they participate a lot in majority activities. They are not going to go to activities they consider less valid or less interesting.

However, funding cultural activities of equal quality is expensive. It represents a lot of work. It may come to that. Otherwise, in 15 or 20 years, we will still be discussing the situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gagné.

This brings our meeting with you this morning to a close. I thank you very much for the contribution you are making to society. On behalf of the members of our committee, we thank you very much for your volunteer work and all of the work that you do.

Before adjourning the meeting, I want to ask you to stay in your spots for a bit, and I will ask the members to stand behind you, so that we can take a group photograph.

The meeting is suspended, and we will resume momentarily with a new group of witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Pursuant to standing order 108(3), we are resuming our study on French and English as a second language programs.

Today we have the pleasure of having Mr. Derrek Bentley, who will be speaking as an individual, Mr. Jeff Anderson, who is the principal of École Guyot, Mr. Ron Cadez, who is the principal of École Howden, and Ms. Sandra Drzystek, liaison officer, French as a second language, Manitoba Education and Training.

I want to welcome all of you.

This is how we are going to proceed. Everyone will have around five minutes to deliver their presentation. We will then have a question and comments period with the members of the committee. The six-minute interventions are for comments or questions and answers. So, those are the rules of the game.

We will begin immediately, with Mr. Bentley.

[Derrek Bentley, As an Individual]

Thank you very much for today's invitation.

I'm going to speak about my own experience. I learned French in an immersion program, and I was for some time, in high school, in a French-language school as a non-rights holder. I did my post-secondary studies in English. I never had the opportunity to speak French at home.

Now, I sit on the national board of directors of Canadian Parents for French. I am also president of the Manitoba Conseil jeunesse provincial, and the Manitoba representative at the Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne-française.

This experience-rich life has brought me before you today to speak about French as a second language programs.

Today, my identity is just as francophone as anglophone, it not more so, but how is that possible since I only ever spoke English at home?

The francophonie as we know it has changed a great deal since several laws about it were brought in. More and more is being said about French-speaking youth, rather than identifying people with labels like francophone and francophile. There is more and more talk about linguistic security. These small changes in terminology have a big impact on how we choose to see the world.

However, these societal changes must be reflected in laws and policies. The perspective on official languages in Canada has to be made to evolve. It's as though for a long time, there was a hierarchy in the francophonie, and there were people who were more francophone than others, and some less so. In that hierarchy, ''old stock'' francophones, those whose mother tongue is French, are often placed at the highest level; those who are bilingual, and for whom French is a second language, are somewhere in the middle, and those who are still learning French are even lower than that.

We have to deconstruct that artificial hierarchy. The government's laws, structures and policies must encourage and create a Canadian francophonie where we all have the opportunity to learn and live in French.

First, there is a crying need to redefine what the francophonie is in the eyes of the government, for the purpose of broadening that definition and including a lot more people. Indeed, everyone who speaks French should have access to French services, which is not always the case. We have to work on normalizing French everywhere for the purpose of creating a truly bilingual Canada.

Secondly, all French-language services have to be planned so that there is enough space in the infrastructure, and there should be a sufficient number of qualified educators to teach the language to all of those who want to learn it. Learning French has changed my life. I am involved and engaged all over the place in French, even though it is not my first language. I find it very difficult to think that other young people across the country don't have that opportunity. Imagine my life if my mother had lost the lottery that gave me a spot in French immersion. Where would I be today? I would certainly not be here before you. The French as a second language programs across the country need to be quality programs, and they should be offered equitably to all those who want them. In my opinion, bilingualism is a part of the social contract which is bedrock in Canada. I would even go so far as to say that learning French and English in school should be a right for all Canadian students.

Third, still on the subject of education, there have to be more options and French-language post-secondary institutions. I should not be forced to study in English after high school because of a lack of access to French-language programs. The creation of these institutions will take time, but in the meantime, it would be a good thing to offer bursaries to cover the very high costs due to the fact that students cannot stay in their region and must move. It would help a lot to enable those who want to pursue post-secondary studies in the language of their choice.

Fourth, French needs to be more than a language that is simply spoken in school, even for youngsters who study French as a second language. We have to do better at promoting a rich and diverse francophonie, and celebrate its diversity, its cultures and its accents everywhere in Canada. I am talking about linguistic security. We have to promote a Canadian francophonie that is broader than ever. We have to value accents and different ways of speaking French by creating space, and a Canada where we feel comfortable speaking French the way we speak it.

Finally, we have to create more inclusive environments by funding projects that allow French-speaking Canadians to innovate and discuss things in French, and this includes French-speaking youth whose French is a second language. Those projects are essential, particularly for youth, and they must be created by young people, for young people. Youth know what other young people need. It could be cooking in French, playing soccer in French, or holding debates in French. French has to be the medium and not the end. And most of all, we have to have trust, and provide resources to the organizations that know how to implement those projects.

Organizations such as Conseil jeunesse provincial and Canadian Parents for French contribute to the solution through their programs but lack the resources to extend their reach as far as possible. We hear a lot about language security for native French speakers, but for people who speak French as a second language, an additional layer of complexity comes into play. At the end of the day, people become bilingual and gain confidence in their skills by using the language in multiple areas of their life.

If you take away anything from my presentation, I hope it's the realization that Canada's francophone community in 2018 looks a lot different than it used to, having changed tremendously over the past few years. Our legislation and policies have to keep pace to better reflect that evolving community. I dream of a Canada where the use of French is considered normal, where we can speak French anywhere, and where we can be served in French without even having to ask. I wholeheartedly believe we can make that dream come true if we work together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bentley.

We will now hear from Mr. Anderson.

[Jeff Anderson, Principal, Louis Riel School Division, École Guyot]

I'd like to thank the committee members for the opportunity to be here today.

My opening statement will focus more on me, personally. I won't be speaking to the major issues that others have addressed so well.

I'm from an English-only-speaking family in southwestern Ontario. We ran a small dairy farm near Sarnia, which had not a single francophone. From grades 3 to 8, I took 20 minutes of core French a day and, then, in high school as well, from grades 9 to 11. This learning was fundamentally important in my life, changing it forever. These French as a second language classes inspired me, instilling in me a love of the French language. I can remember the teacher showing us pictures of young children enjoying the winter carnival in Quebec City and skating on the Rideau Canal. She told us that the children in the pictures spoke French, which seemed odd to us, since we didn't know anyone who spoke French. Even our teacher was an anglophone.

After grade 11, I spent a year in Casablanca, Morocco, as an exchange student. I attended a French lycée there. After that amazing year, I completed grade 13 back home, in southwestern Ontario.

I then did my university studies in French. I earned a bachelor's degree in science at the University of Ottawa, some 700 kilometres from home. I chose the University of Ottawa because of its bilingual program, which allowed me to study science in French. You could call it a very late French immersion program.

After completing my bachelor's degree at the University of Ottawa, I did a master in science. I then obtained a bachelor of education from Laurentian University, in Sudbury, which is also a long way from my home in Sarnia. The schools in my area did not offer any French-language programs at the time.

After all that, I moved to Manitoba, where I began my career. I have been involved in the province's immersion programming for 22 years now and have been with the Louis Riel School Division for 18 years.

When I was a teacher, I taught physics, natural science, and mathematics at the high school and junior high school levels. As a curriculum consultant at the Bureau de l'éducation française, I helped design natural science curriculum for K-12 students. I have been a principal for 13 years, all of that time spent at immersion-only schools.

In addition, I have a master's degree in school administration from Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface.

Despite growing up in an English-only-speaking family, I earned three of my four university degrees in French.

I care deeply about French-language education, not just on a professional level, but also on a personal one. I have four sons between the ages of 12 and 18. We raise them in both languages, and they have all attended or currently attend DSFM schools.

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Anderson.

Next, we will hear from Mr. Cadez.

[Ron Cadez, Principal, Louis Riel School Division, École Howden]

Good morning.

Thank you for inviting me to be here today.

This morning, I have the pleasure of telling you about my experience in immersion schools. I am the principal of École Howden, part of the Louis Riel School Division, here, in Winnipeg. Throughout my 24-year career, I have worked as a teacher and administrator in immersion schools at every level, kindergarten through grade 12. For 10 years, I taught music to elementary and high school students. For three years, I was the vice-principal at Collège Béliveau, a school for students in grades 7 to 12. For the past 11 years, I have been a principal, first, at École Provencher, a K-8 school, and, then, at École Howden, a K-6 school. I'm very proud to be a member of our school division's team. The Louis Riel School Division is considered a leader in the province when it comes to immersion programming, so I'm very fortunate to have had the opportunity to work and learn in an environment where both of Canada's official languages are so highly valued.

I was not bilingual when I began my career. In fact, I thought my French education had come to an end when I took my last core French class in grade 12 or when I dropped my French class in my first year at the University of Toronto because I was so lost after three months. All that to say I didn't learn French as a young child or in school; rather, I learned French as a teacher working in an immersion school. It was not until I learned French as a teacher that I realized for the first time the program's true power. From the early days of my career, as I watched my students succeed and their language proficiency improve, I eventually came to recognize the program's potential, so much so that I chose an immersion school for my own children.

The success of my students shaped how I look at learning as an educator in an immersion school. For instance, I firmly believe that immersion programs should not be viewed as elitist. They are for all students. I believe that just about every student can achieve success, regardless of what subject they are studying or whether they are in an immersion or English-language program. That said, in order for students to derive the maximum benefit from being in an immersion program, certain conditions need to be in place.

In doing research for my master of education thesis, at the University of Lethbridge, I explored those conditions. I was trying to pinpoint the reasons why some students would switch from the immersion program to the English-language program when they started high school. I learned that the enrolment and retention rates of the immersion schools in the Louis Riel School Division were among the highest in the country. I determined that the model our schools use and our focus on a French-only environment from kindergarten to grade 12 are factors that greatly contributed to the success of our schools. The French-only model for all levels, especially high school, is very rare in Manitoba and around the country.

I also believe that a French-language learning environment is essential in order for students to reach their full potential. Obviously, I'm a big believer in the work I do and the potential of our immersion schools.

I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to this important discussion. I look forward to answering your questions and sharing my views.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cadez.

We will now go to Ms. Drzystek.

[Sandra Drzystek, Liaison Officer, French as a Second Language, Manitoba Education and Training]

Good morning, everyone.

I am very happy to be here today. I could tell you about my personal background, but I would rather talk to you about the Manitoba context and the work I do at Manitoba Education and Training.

I learned French through core French classes, as others here have done. I was a French teacher in a program in English and a teacher in a French immersion program. I was also a divisional consultant in a school division for the French component as well as for other languages, including English as a second language, Spanish and German.

I will speak to you in both official languages, because I think we need spaces where it is possible to communicate in both languages. So I will take the liberty of speaking in both French and English.

My current position, which I've held for 11 years, is that of liaison officer for French as a second language. It involves understanding and addressing challenges in French as a second language in Manitoba and supporting school divisions and other partners in improving the state of French as a second language in our province.

I'm dedicated to this because I have a personal experience, and I see it in our children every day. What resonates with me here is that for so many people it's about the journey. It's almost a miracle that some of our kids stay till the end of grade 12 and maybe continue on in their studies, because what I hear from many people is that our students don't necessarily have a legitimate place in Canadian society as bilinguals or plurilinguals. That may not be very comfortable for you to hear, but that's the reality.

Some of the biggest challenges we face are with confidence—confidence in language competencies—and that goes for our students as well as our teachers.

I'd like to speak about French in the English program and also about French immersion. In terms of French in the English program in Manitoba, all of our school divisions offer these courses from K to 12. It's not mandated provincially; however, most school divisions mandate it.

Most teachers are generalists. They may or may not have a certain competency in French. There's little or no training for them when they go through the faculty of education. This is a huge concern. Provincially, we offer much professional development and much learning, but these teachers don't necessarily see themselves as language teachers. They teach all the subjects every day, from K to 8. Perhaps the high school teachers are specialists; I was, but most teachers aren't.

What happens, then, is that students have limited exposure from K to 8, and what they do have isn't great. After five, six, or seven years of French in French class, most students leave with almost no competency in communicative skills in French. What does that result in? It results in huge reductions in enrolment in the high schools. We have such small numbers of high school students who actually continue to grade 12 that it's shocking.

When I was in school way back when, many students continued on in grade 12. Some of us here around this table are those students. That is less prevalent in society now, and that concerns me greatly, because the big thing we think we need to pay attention to is that most of our students in Manitoba will only have access to French language education through that format. They account for 31% of our Manitoba students that are in the program, whereas French immersion, which I will speak to next, accounts for 13% of our population.

Coming now to French immersion, I think similar things are also true. We sell the story and we sell the dream, but do we actually realize that dream in a real way?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Sandra. We'll have to go to the next round, which will be questions from and comments by the members of the committee.

Members of the committee have six minutes to ask questions and make comments.

We will begin with Sylvie Boucher, who will introduce herself first.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good morning.

My name is Sylvie Boucher and I am a member of the greater Quebec City area, specifically the riding of Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix. I was parliamentary secretary for official languages for a year and a half and then parliamentary secretary for the status of women. Since 2006, I have been fighting hard for the French language, even though I am a Quebecker myself.

Today, I must say that, as I'm listening to you, I find it interesting that you, as unilingual anglophones, have been drawn to our language. Mr. Bentley and Mr. Anderson, you talked a lot about your personal experience, but what made you want to speak French? You were from a unilingual English family, and today, you are fighting to make people understand that you can be both bilingual—anglophone and francophone—and live in French.

Can you tell me what attracted you to French and why you have chosen this cause today?

[Derrek Bentley]

In my case, my parents enrolled me in an immersion school simply because, at home, in our community, the school that offered that program was seen as a good school. So that's how it started, without my being involved and almost by chance.

When I was in elementary school, everyone around me spoke French. I thought that all young people spoke French and that it was normal. When I came to high school, I studied in a dual-track school for about six months and realized that, in that school, only one-third of the kids spoke French and two-thirds spoke only English. That's when my world changed. That's why I chose a school where the first language was French, and now, I think I already had this feeling that it was normal, from a young age.

In my mind, I can really see a Canada where it's normal for young people and adults across Canada to learn French and English and to be able to speak one or the other language anywhere. So I think it comes from this experience of suddenly realizing that it's not normal to speak only one language and to want other young people to have experiences like the ones I had at school.

[Jeff Anderson]

Personally, I think it’s really the teachers who have awakened that passion in me. If I had had teachers who were not passionate, I would never have become one. So that certainly made a big difference for me. Teachers are also the ones who helped me understand that it was possible to use the French language elsewhere. So in grade 11, I spent a week in Ottawa at the Forum for Young Canadians. It was so exciting. It was wonderful to hear so many people speak French.

We also travelled to Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City in grade 8. It also allowed me to explore an entirely different culture. It was fascinating for me. So, if teachers had not organized those trips and opened the door to those possibilities, I would have never discovered it.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

You just said something that has struck me.

We are talking about Manitoba. We have travelled all the way here to the west to realize that your province or the western provinces are reluctant to recognize the French fact. And yet, you just said yourself that learning both languages has opened the world to you.

In other meetings, we also talked at length about revising the Official Languages Act because it has not been revised in 50 years. If you had a suggestion to make here in the committee, what would be the first thing you would like us to do for you to advance the French fact?

[Sandra Drzystek]

I have only one suggestion: to give students more opportunities to live in French, to create federal programs that would allow students to have opportunities—not just in high school, but from kindergarten to grade 12—to live in French with native speakers. That means they would have a francophone friend somewhere, a personal connection with the language. This is what's missing; they do not have this connection, this opportunity to learn French outside of school.

Activities outside school is the key to personal connections. School trips, exchanges like those offered by the Society for Educational Visits and Exchanges in Canada (SEVEC) make all the difference. We must recognize that there is a space for people who are multilingual or bilingual. They are not Quebeckers, they are not Franco-Manitoban and never will be. They are bilingual, they have another identity; we must really support that identity and create the space for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Boucher.

Dan Vandal will be the next speaker, but just as an introduction, I would like to congratulate Mr. Vandal—and I did the same earlier, with the first panel of witnesses—on his excellent work for the francophonie in the region.

You know, in Ottawa, many of our members are francophone and come from outside Quebec. It's really surprising. Today, three of them are here: in addition to Mr. Vandal, we have Darrell Samson from Nova Scotia, and René Arseneault from New Brunswick. There is a significant francophone presence in Parliament, in Ottawa.

Congratulations on the work that you do for your region, Mr. Vandal.

You have the floor, Mr. Vandal.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We are pleased to welcome all our witnesses today. The two schools in question, École Guyot and École Howden, are located in Windsor Park and Southdale, respectively, in my riding of Saint Boniface—Saint Vital. Congratulations. Keep up the good work that you do for our language and our community.

My first question is for Ms. Drzystek.

I'm trying to understand the difference between all the programs in our school system. We have the French-as-a-second-language program and the immersion program. When my kids were smaller, there was even the 50-50 program. I think it was at the École Provencher.

What is the difference between the French-as-a-second-language program and the immersion program?

[Sandra Drzystek]

The concept of French as a second language is what was previously called basic French. It's part of the English program in Manitoba. Normally, students have 30 to 45 minutes of French classes per day, and in high school, 110 hours of French classes. It's only a language course, while in immersion, all school subjects are taught in French.

The challenge in Manitoba is that there are not enough teachers for all the subjects, such as physical education or music. There may also not be enough teaching consultants, special needs teachers or guidance counsellors. That's where we are seeing a shortage of staff. The federal budget provides money for teacher training, an area where there is a gap.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

I know that École Provencher offered a 50-50 program at one time. Is that still the case?

[Ron Cadez]

No. I was the principal of École Provencher when the program was cancelled. The program changed over the years, and toward the end it was no longer a program for francophones. The initial idea was to provide francophones with the opportunity to learn some English. Some subjects, such as math and science, were taught in English, and the rest of the program was in French. In our view, the program had become a diluted version of the immersion program towards the end. Anglophones enrolled in the program to learn some French and some English. It went against our school division’s philosophy behind the immersion program. That’s when we decided to move from a 50-50 program at École Provencher to an immersion program.

[Sandra Drzystek]

In Manitoba, the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine has French as a first language. Instead of having a 50-50 program for francophones, rights holders pursue a French program and they have the choice of being in a French immersion program. It’s really two French-as-a-second-language systems, the basic French program and the immersion program.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

I'm quite familiar with the DSFM. As is the case for Mr. Bentley, my youngest graduated from a DSFM school.

I have heard a bit about an elitist immersion program. Can the two principals talk about it briefly?

[Jeff Anderson]

Yes.

Ms. Drzystek alluded to the fact that some school divisions may not call upon bilingual specialists, special needs teachers or guidance counsellors. In many school divisions, the immersion program is offered in dual-track schools, that is, there are two programs within the same school.

Parents often have a misperception. They feel that, if their child is having difficulty with the immersion program, it is because of the language. As administrators, our job is to make them aware of research showing that changing programs is not the answer to learning difficulties.

We are very well supported in our school division with the immersion program. Francophone special needs teachers, guidance counsellors, psychologists and social workers can help the children attending our immersion school. It is important. Research shows that, when they can receive adequate support, children with learning disabilities may be successful in the immersion program. But debunking a myth is not always easy.

[Ron Cadez]

I would like to add to my colleague's comments.

It seems to me that one of the frequent reactions to students experiencing difficulties is to suggest a transfer, as Mr. Anderson said. Parents are not always the ones who consider this possibility. The teachers are often the ones proposing it. My research has shown that this was a common approach. Even now, this is one of the first recommendations from outside psychologists who are assessing children in difficulty and who are not really familiar with our program. We are convinced that the recommendation is not desirable.

Ms. Drzystek mentioned that 13% of students in the province were immersion students. Last night, there were 30 families in my school, but there were only 14 in the neighbouring anglophone school. About half of the families in our neighbourhood have children who are enrolled in our immersion program. This is a good representation of the population. We must meet all the needs and we work hard to do so.