Official Languages Committee on March 9th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 20 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

The committee is meeting today to discuss its study entitled “Government Measures to Protect and Promote French in Quebec and in Canada”.

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I would now like to welcome our witness.

I would like to say to Mr. Jean-Pierre Corbeil that he will have seven and a half minutes for his statement, to be followed by a round of questions from members of the committee.

As usual, I have a yellow card to signal to witnesses that they have a minute left. I use a red card to let them know that their time is up.

We the committee members now welcome Mr. Jean-Pierre Corbeil, Assistant Director, Diversity and Sociocultural Statistics, at Statistics Canada.

Mr. Corbeil, you have the floor for seven and a half minutes.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil, Assistant Director, Diversity and Sociocultural Statistics, Statistics Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee members for inviting Statistics Canada to appear before them to provide input into their study on the measures the Government of Canada can take to protect and promote French in Canada.

My brief presentation will cover three key points. First, I will talk about different indicators and concepts that are used to track the evolution of French in Canada. Second, I will describe some of the issues and challenges specific to the state of French outside Quebec, as well as in Quebec. Lastly, I will conclude my presentation with a list of other topics requiring more in-depth analysis that needs to factor in the growing complexity of language dynamics and multilingualism in Canada, and particularly in Quebec.

First of all, what do we mean by the state of French in Canada? There are actually a number of indicators and concepts that are used to track its evolution. For example, there are traditional ones that look at the change in the size and proportion of the population with French as its mother tongue, the population with French as the main language used at home, and the population that knows French well enough to have a conversation.

And while statistics on the use of French in the private sphere are very useful and reveal multiple facets of linguistic diversity, language policies, charters and legislation focus on the public sphere. In this vein, it is very important and useful to collect and publish information on the language of work and on language practices in different areas of public life, such as language of instruction, day care centres, cultural activities, public signage, communications with and services offered to communities, to name a few.

Faced with this wide array of indicators, we want to know which one or ones will be considered most important or will best reflect what we call the state and evolution of French. The findings on the status of French could also differ based on whether only one indicator or several non mutually exclusive indicators were used.

Two indicators traditionally used to monitor the evolution of French outside Quebec—mother tongue and first official language spoken—reveal that the French-language population continues to grow in number, but decrease in proportion. The same observation was made for the population that reported being able to have a conversation in French.

Moreover, the population that speaks French predominantly at home is declining in number and proportion, while the population that uses it equally with English or as a secondary language is growing. Similarly, the population that predominantly uses French at work has dropped in number and proportion in favour of the population that uses French and English equally in the workplace.

Of course, it is perilous to speak only to a global analysis without taking into account the great diversity of situations and contexts, depending upon whether one resides in the Atlantic provinces, in Ontario or in the western provinces, in rural areas or in larger urban centres.

In addition, some less frequently used indicators testify to the fact that the picture is not all negative. For example, over the last 10 years for which data are available, the number of enrolments in a French-language minority school has grown by 17% to reach nearly 171,000 students. Likewise, the number of young people who registered in the French immersion program in Canada has increased by nearly 70% since the very first action plan for official languages began in 2003, reaching nearly 478,000 students during the year 2018-19.

However, several studies have documented the fact that the main issue in this area concerns the retention of second language skills and the opportunities to maintain them over time.

Two other considerable issues are hindering the growth of French in Canada outside Quebec. The large-scale study entitled “Language Projections for Canada, 2011 to 2036,” which Statistics Canada published in 2017, shows to what extent major changes in the number of French-language immigrants would be required to stabilize the demographic weight of the francophone population. What's more, incomplete transmission of French from one generation to the next, combined with a low fertility rate and weak status of French in many regions of the country are impeding the growth of the French-language population.

In Quebec, the presence and use of French, and how it has evolved, is complex and multifaceted. For example, census data on mother tongue or main language used at home are generally used to show how French in Quebec has changed. We know that immigration is the main driver of population growth and that the vast majority of these immigrants—more than 7 in 10, in fact—have neither English nor French as their mother tongue. In addition, of the roughly 180,000 new immigrants in the Montreal area at the last census, more than half spoke another language most often at home.

Finally, of the approximately 1.1 million immigrants who were living in Quebec in 2016, 55% reported speaking more than one language at home.

Are these statistics automatically indicative of the decline of French in favour of English in Quebec? Not necessarily, because the reality is much more complex.

For example, in the last census, of the roughly 230,000 workers in the greater Montreal area who spoke a language other than English or French most often at home, close to 46% used French most often at work and another 18% used it equally with English.

As well, between 2006 and 2016, the predominant use of English at work by workers whose mother tongue was English fell by 6 percentage points, and by 7 percentage points among workers in the “other” mother tongue category, in favour of the predominant use of French or equal use of French and English. In contrast, a decrease in the predominant use of French was observed among workers whose mother tongue was French, in favour of equal use of French and English.

According to the Office québécois de la langue française, there was an increase in bilingual greetings by clerks in Montreal stores between 2010 and 2017, but the option for service in French remained stable at 95%.

Finally, of the approximately 6,000 French-mother-tongue McGill University students who graduated between 2010 and 2015, more than 80% reported speaking French most often at home in the last census. These are just some examples of the complexity of language dynamics in Quebec.

Before I conclude, I'd like to say that in addition to the information on French as a mother tongue and as the main language used at home, it is important to delve deeper into a number of dynamics and dimensions on the evolution of the situation of French.

In Quebec, for example, which specific factors account for the increase in English–French bilingualism in the workplace? What is the role of industry sectors involved in commercial trade with the rest of the country or internationally?

A more in-depth analysis of these issues is absolutely necessary, especially considering the growing importance of exports of goods and services from Quebec's high-technology and knowledge industries. In addition, a better understanding is required of the obvious under-representation of populations with an immigrant background in provincial, regional and local public administrations, and in Crown corporations in the greater Montreal area, sectors where the use of French is rather widespread.

There also seems to be an urgent need to better understand the role of language and educational paths, on the one hand, and the language used in the public sphere in Quebec, on the other.

Furthermore, given the increasing complexity of language dynamics and a rise in multilingualism at home in the Montreal area, the traditional indicators of “mother tongue” and “language spoken most often at home,” including a focus on language transfers, need to be revisited and better integrated with other language practice indicators to develop a more complete portrait of the evolution of French in Quebec.

In Canada outside Quebec, some of the topics requiring more comprehensive analysis include the transmission of French to children; the retention of language proficiency among young people whose second language is French; a better understanding of the issues and obstacles that impede the growth, integration and inclusion of highly ethnoculturally diverse francophone immigrants; and a better understanding of the barriers and opportunities of French educational paths from preschool to university.

To conclude, the data to be collected in the 2021 Census of Population this coming May and in the Survey on the Official Language Minority Population in 2022 will be combined with data from other administrative sources and from surveys to build a rich data ecosystem, which will help to enhance our understanding of the complex dynamics of the situation of French in the country.

Thank you for your attention. I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Corbeil.

We'll now move on to the first six-minute round of questions. We'll begin with Mr. Dalton.

Mr. Dalton, you have the floor for the next six minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Corbeil.

You mentioned that the French-language population was growing in number, but decreasing proportionately. You said that immigration was the main reason for this.

In 2019, according to the immigration statistics, none of the 10 countries from which the vast majority of immigrants come had French as a first or official language. Considering the fact that Canada's population growth is mainly through immigration and not the birth rate, what should we do? What can we do?

Do you have any comments on this?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Thank you for your question, which is very appropriate.

We nevertheless need to look at things very carefully. That's why I spoke about the criteria used to define French-language populations. For example, it's important to know that most French-language immigrants who settle outside Quebec come from francophone Africa, mainly sub-Saharan, or the Maghreb. The vast majority of these immigrants have neither French nor English as their mother tongue. Nevertheless, they use French because, as a result of education and their colonial heritage, many completed their entire schooling in French. When they get to Canada, they may speak Swahili, Arabic or another language, but their main language may well be French. They go to French-language schools.

Close attention to the criteria used is also required. However, you are absolutely right. If we compare the relative weight of French-language immigration to English-language immigration, it's clear that we are well below the levels required to maintain the population's demographic weight. At the moment, approximately 2% of immigration is French-language immigration.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

I am a member of Parliament from the Vancouver area. In light of the circumstances caused by COVID-19 last year, many immigrants from Africa whose second language is French had a great deal of trouble obtaining services in that language. It's truly a problem. It's indicative of how poorly we are doing in providing services to official language minority communities.

Do you think that our systems are requiring people who live outside Quebec to learn English rather than French? I am referring to francophones and francophiles.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

This too is a very good question. What is perfectly clear is that many of these immigrants have a knowledge of English that is probably inadequate when they arrive. Many of them have mentioned that they consider it very important to integrate into the French-language community, but that to enter the labour market, they also have to develop language skills in English.

It's a paradox then, because to maintain the vitality of the French-language community, proficiency in both languages is required to better integrate into that community.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Right. I wonder whether we can make more of an effort to attract French-speaking immigrants. It's a big question, and it may be out of your...

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I can't indulge in politics, of course.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

I understand.

I find it encouraging to see just how many students are in immersion programs. You said that there was a 70% increase since 2003. There are now half a million students in immersion. Here in British Columbia, there are 54,000. This demonstrates enthusiasm about learning French across the country. That's a good thing.

As you mentioned, the greatest challenge is retention of the language in an anglophone setting. To promote French as an official language, we think that it's very important to focus on this pool of immersion students. We mustn't lose that.

Do you have any comments or suggestions about this?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

What I can say is that from a statistical standpoint, the biggest problem is that once most of these students are out of the school system and in the labour market, they don't get much of an opportunity to use their second language. Their proficiency declines as time goes by.

Promoting opportunities to use the language, by instilling a greater appreciation of French and the importance of French to Canada, for example, could certainly contribute to the solution. It's important to see more than just a symbol. It's obvious that people need opportunities to speak French.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

That's the challenge we need to meet, which is to grow the French language community. I'm sure that even the students want to continue to use their second language.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Dalton.

Mrs. Lalonde, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Corbeil, I'd like to thank you for being here with us this evening to put all of Statistics Canada's indicators for population trends into perspective.

Among the categories you mentioned were those populations whose mother tongue is French, those who speak French at home, those for whom French is the first official language spoken, those for whom French is the language spoken most often at home, those for whom French is the language of work, and those who have a knowledge of French.

I'd like you to tell us more about the trends since the most recent censuses, from 2001 to 2016, and more specifically to give us an overview of regional differences in the decline of French outside Quebec. I represent the riding of Orleans in Ontario, and as we know, pools of francophone populations are often found together.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Thank you. That's a good question.

It's clear that if we track the evolution since the 2021 census, and disregard the extent to which the censuses are comparable, what we see is aging populations, particularly in the Atlantic provinces. In New Brunswick, for example, the population as a whole declined between 2011 and 2016, and not only the French-language population.

There are specific challenges. For example, there has been considerable anglicization in the Atlantic provinces. The percentage of francophones who use English more often at home is very high. Of course, there are enormous variations in terms of the demographic weight represented by these populations.

In Ontario, we need only look at Toronto, where there is no real concentration of francophones at all. There are many French speakers, but not compared to the Ottawa or northern Ontario regions.

This has progressed a great deal over time, but not only as a function of migration. The Atlantic provinces attract very few French-language immigrants. Most settle in Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg, among others. Here again, it's all a matter of concentration.

When we talk about the evolution of French, it's important to consider the factors that contribute to population evolution generally. There are two key factors. Immigration was already mentioned, but there is also interprovincial migration. In New Brunswick, for example, the situation is rather unique, with a high level of out-of-province mobility among highly educated French-language people.

In northern New Brunswick, it's hard to retain immigrants. For economic or socioeconomic reasons, they prefer to move outside the province. Some regions receive very few people as a result of international immigration or interprovincial migration. Even in Ontario, this can be seen clearly. Schools are closing in the north of this province whereas the schools are full in the southwest

Migration therefore plays an extremely important role. In some communities, the concentration of francophones is higher. In such cases, the vitality of French is no doubt stronger and better than in regions that receive very few people who migrate there, and hence the population is aging generally and needs to cope with the exodus of younger generations.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you.

In your address, you spoke about the increase in the number of francophones outside Quebec. However, the proportion of francophones is apparently still decreasing in these same provinces and territories. It went from 4% in 2011 to 3.8% in 2016.

Can you give us more details about this and why it is happening?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I answered a question earlier about the number of French-language immigrants. The population is growing in number, but decreasing in percentage. That's not surprising. We conducted a study that included projections for this population, showing that in some provinces, the number of French-language immigrants would have to triple to maintain the demographic weight of this population. The immigration of English-language populations has the wind and its sails, whereas the number of French-language immigrants is struggling to contribute to growth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil.

Mr. Beaulieu, You have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, Mr. Corbeil. Thank you for your presentation.

We have often been under the impression that Statistics Canada was painting an optimistic picture of the situation. Now, the government and the minister responsible are admitting that French is declining in Canada and Quebec.

Do you agree with this?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

It's a broad question. If you're asking me whether French is slipping in Quebec, I would say that we have, since the last census, observed a decline in the use of French as the main language, both at work and at home, at the expense of two languages being used. By observing language transfers, some have claimed that, given the demographic weight of the English-mother-tongue population in Quebec, 90% of immigrants should be adopting French and only 10% adopting English.

It's nevertheless important to consider that for the past 15 years, the proportion of immigrants tending to adopt French as the main language at home has been growing. We're talking about 10 percentage points over 15 years. There is therefore a decrease of the same order in those opting for French.

So it's not a bed of roses, but we need to be very careful. For example, it's been said that the transfer in Quebec is falling back because the other-mother-tongue population is growing. Of course…

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I don't think anyone says that. I've often heard people who wanted to paint an optimistic picture of the situation say it, but that's not the problem. The problem is that language transfers have been hugely and disproportionately towards English.

Let's talk about the language used at home.

The anglicization or assimilation process is insidious. People are steadily using more English than French at home, and the situation is changing gradually. According to the indicator for French as the main language spoken at home, French is in decline. The Statistics Canada projections on language used at home, as illustrated in scenario 8, show that the percentage of francophones could drop from 81.6% in 2011 to 73.6% in 2036.

Do you agree with these Statistics Canada projections?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I'd say that we're placing a huge emphasis on this problem. I wouldn't contradict you on that. That's why I mentioned that it's important to look at a variety of indicators rather than only one. The fact is that the use of French as the main language at home will continue to decline. There is no doubt about that. That's what the projections show in all the scenarios.

However, some immigrants whose mother tongue is another language continue to speak their other language most often at home, but use French as their second language. Most analysts ignore this by saying that it's not important. However, we've seen that in Quebec, 80% of these people speak French as their second, though not as their main, language at home, and 80% of them use French as their main language at work.

It's important to pay attention to the indicators. There is no doubt, however, particularly in terms of mother tongue, that French is not the mother tongue of the majority of immigrants. I fully agree with you on that score.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In my view, that's not the most important indicator.

In any event, I've noticed that all the indicators show the same thing.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Overall, that's true.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In the most recent Statistics Canada census, one point caught my attention.

It explained that according to the usual analysis methods, approximately 80.6% of francophones used French as the main language at home. However, a new way of analyzing the results showed that 87% of francophones spoke French at home. In the latter, multiple responses were used. In the previous method, if someone said they used both French and English at home, 50% was entered for French and 50% for English. That's the general principle that had been used.

The new method was to enter 100% for people who said they spoke French only, among francophones, and enter 100% for those who also spoke English. This led to totals that sometimes exceeded 100%, like 121%.

Why was this method used? The chief statistician seemed to be saying that it was to help official language minorities.