Pay Equity Committee on April 18th, 2016

[Annick Desjardins]

The question of cost comes up all the time. It's a legitimate concern. It depends upon whether you're talking about the cost of the process to implement pay equity or the cost of the redress or the pay adjustments. Obviously, the more women are being discriminated against, the more costly it is to redress that discrimination.

We've tried in CUPE to assess and have estimates, but it's really difficult to do, because it really depends.... You try to assess the cost as a percentage of a payroll—things like that—but where you start from really depends upon the composition of the groups and whether there were already job evaluations in place or not.

We cannot come up with a figure that will be relevant, really. We tried and we can't do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

I'm sorry, we're out of time.

In the interests of time, we can go into our final round, but I would suggest that we reduce the time from five minutes to four minutes, if that's the will of the committee.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Okay.

The next round will be Mr. Albas for four minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you again to all of our witnesses for your work for Canadians, also for your members, and of course, for our committee today.

I'd like to start by going back to Ms. Benson.

First of all, thank you for bringing a written submission and for making it as descriptive as possible. It's helpful for us to get a better image in our minds.

In your opening statement, you talked about an independent commission and tribunal. Is that the case?

[Robyn Benson]

Yes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay.

I'm assuming that this will apply both federally to the public sector as well as the private sector?

[Robyn Benson]

Yes, because my understanding is that this was the recommendation of the task force.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay.

Obviously, governance, staffing, and all that stuff are a conversation for another day, but I appreciate that you at least came and told us what proactive means to your members.

[Robyn Benson]

Yes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Another thing I believe you mentioned in your comments is that there's a lot of focus on the Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act, and I know many of the unions here have taken very strong positions on that, but there's also the other relevant legislation that affects your members, and that's the Public Service Labour Relations Act. This has been raised a few times and I think in your comments at one point.

If a member finds an issue of pay equity at the workplace, you say that their rights are being diminished because we cannot assist them. To me it makes sense that, if a member were to say to you, “Here's my perspective on this. I'd like you to take this on and see if there's any validity to it and see if this is something you can run up the flagpole for resolution”.... Because I think to a large extent, if it doesn't relate directly to them, then it would relate more to the workplace and how it functions.

There's nothing stopping a union from saying, “Yes, this is a legitimate pay equity concern. We will take this and address this through the various processes.” For example, if PSECA were in place, there would be an assessment of the workplace. It would then go to a process of engagement with the employer.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

[Robyn Benson]

Well, if you're asking me would the union, if PSECA is in place, assist our members with pay equity, we certainly would, but the fine would be $50,000. For every member we help, it's a $50,000 fine.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

But the question I asked, though, is: if they say they have a situation, rather than you pursuing it on behalf of that member, would you take it up as an issue to deal with yourself as a union?

[Robyn Benson]

Our understanding of PSECA, while it hasn't been enacted yet, is that, if the union were to file any pay equity complaints, it's a $50,000 fine because we're filing it on behalf of our membership. What the task force clearly articulated was that we needed to have proactive pay equity legislation.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

The reason why I raise this, and I mentioned this in earlier testimony, is that there is an availability that if someone, an individual, finds that they're being discriminated against for gender, for any of the things under the Canadian Human Rights Act, they can deal with that through various means, the ultimate of which would be to take it to the tribunal. That's still within there.

To me, I think it's eminently reasonable to say that if someone, one of your members, had seen it and said, “There is a case here for pay equity discrimination” that you as the union could take that on for the membership in general. Is that not correct?

[Helen Berry]

Sure, I'll be quick.

The problem with that is the individual's not having the information to even know if they have an equitable compensation problem or a pay equity problem because they don't have the access to the information from the employer to actually say that. But if they were to raise.... The CR complaint came from our members. The complaints we have filed have all come from our members, so I don't think that's a huge issue—

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

The time is up.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Is it four minutes already?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Four minutes is a short time.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay, thank you, Madam Chair. I know it's difficult.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

We're going to Mr. Sheehan for four minutes.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

Just on the pay equity commission and the pay equity tribunal that the 2004 federal pay equity task force recommended, in your opinion, what would be the advantages and disadvantages of setting these up?

[Annick Desjardins]

v The obvious advantages are the expertise because this is quite technical and we do need expertise and people who will stay in their commission and not move elsewhere in other areas of investigative functions. Our experience in Quebec has been good with a specialized body to help the parties through this process.

In Quebec, if there was any litigation to pursue this it would go to the labour board, which is not exactly the best solution because the labour board does not have expertise with this systemic discrimination. We think a human rights tribunal does, so it's more appropriate for both parties to have someone with this knowledge handling the complaint.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Could these bodies not be branches of existing agencies, if they're given adequate resources?

[Annick Desjardins]

They could, but then the problem of personnel mobility might come up.