Subcommittee on Private Members' Business Committee on June 15th, 2009

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

I am new to this committee, but, normally, the decision to sit in camera is made collegially and with respect for all members of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

It's clear, Madam Gagnon, that the committee is the master of its own fate. If the committee chooses to move in camera, I'm certainly at the will of the committee.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I propose that the committee move in camera in conformity with the practices of subcommittees when discussing this kind of issue. My understanding is that this subcommittee has sat in camera every single time it's met. It is my understanding--and you can correct me if I'm wrong--that this is the very first time that this committee is not in camera. As you can see from the reaction from some of the members, they assumed, as did I, that the meeting was in camera.

I move that the meeting go in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

I will accept that motion. I just want to verify with the clerk....

[Inaudible--Editor]...that the motion is non-debatable and non-amendable.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Mr. Chair, I believe there was a motion on the floor to the effect that we would be voting on Bill C-391, up or down. You can't go back after having had a vote. We had a show of hands, and then we were moving to an actual recorded vote. We can't stop in the middle of a vote and have a discussion of whether we're going to go in camera. As I saw it, the three opposite members were all indicating they wanted Bill C-391 killed by voting it down. I was voting in favour, and I realized that happened and I said I would like to make this vote on division. You can't stop in the middle of a vote and go in camera or do any other procedural item.

In fact, we are in the stage now of debating, I gather. Actually, we should be having a vote. We have to vote, period. The vote is on whether Bill C-391 is votable under the four criteria before us. It's not on any other subject. It's certainly not something that should be stopped whenever--

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

On a point of order.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

--Madam Jennings feels like throwing the rules aside and--

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

A point of order, Chair.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I'm in the middle of a point of order. You can't interrupt one point of order with another, Mr. Chair.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I thought you were trying to debate. You did not begin with a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Madam Jennings, with all due respect, I'd like Mr. Reid to finish.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

She's right. I actually didn't call a point of order. I don't know if there's some kind of rule that says if you forgot to say it you're out of order.

Anyway, this is a point of order, clearly, because the orders require that votes be completed. All three members were in the process of voting against this, and that should be recorded. In fact, the discussion arose when they learned that it wasn't in camera and were asking...but that was a matter of information.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair. I think that he is assuming that I will vote a certain way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Excuse me.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

I do not want to politicize the debate, but that seems to be what people want to do at the moment.

Do not make assumptions about how I will vote. I just asked for us to be very clear about the vote. We are being asked if the bill is votable or not. I wanted to be sure about what I am voting on, because I was not the first time. That I why I asked for the clarification.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

I'm going to proceed before someone else runs in here.

We were in the middle of a discussion as to whether we would agree to proceed with Bill C-391. Three members indicated they were opposed to that. We did not have a formal motion to that effect. My understanding is there is not a motion on the floor. We've normally worked by consensus here, so we have not had a formal motion on the floor. Based on that, the only motion that I'm aware of that is on the floor currently is Madam Jennings' motion to move in camera.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

May I make a point? This is not on my motion; it's on the issue of taking a vote on committee business. In committee business we have an obligation to file a report with the committee as a whole. The committee as a whole then files a report with the House of Commons. The procedure is that our reports are confidential until--

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

That's if it's in camera.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I have never been part of a committee that has discussed a report in public. The rule--and you can check with the clerk.... Simply calling this meeting as a public meeting, I think, was a violation of the rules.

Second, to request a vote in public.... As you see, the members of this committee, of the three opposition parties, only became aware that the meeting was in fact in public when I commented on the issue of a recorded vote being raised and said that you don't have a recorded vote in camera. Then you informed the committee that in fact you had made the decision and that the notice did not say that it was in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Actually, Madam Jennings, if you read it carefully, it says clearly on the orders of the day that it's a “public” meeting. I don't take it upon myself--

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I just said the members did not--

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

We have a motion before us. It is non-debatable and non-amendable.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, just to be clear about this, there was a notice sent out--I received it in my office--stating that the meeting was in public. That was received by my office last week. Just to be clear, while we are on the record and in public, that notice was sent out, and any suggestion that the chair or the clerk has acted improperly by having a public meeting, as Madam Jennings seemed to be at least insinuating, is factually incorrect.

Also, on the same point of order, I want to point out that she is also incorrect when she says that these meetings occur, under our rules, in camera. The fact is that our rules say nothing about meeting in camera.

The rules regarding private members' business are under Standing Order 91.1. What they say is that the meetings will occur, but they make no statement about the meetings occurring in camera. I'm just in the midst of finding the relevant order so I can read it to all members, so that they can be disabused of the incorrect notion that this is not something that happens. Forgive me--

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Chair, are you going to call the vote on the motion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

I'm going to call the vote as soon as the point of order is completed.