--yes, Frances--who has functioned as a big non-governmental organization trying to deal with the government, and thirdly, somebody from the private sector, coming back to Mr. Williams' question, Marc Tellier, who's running the Yellow Pages corporation, so he looks at it from the private sector perspective. Then what you do is you provide Treasury Board officials, which has been done, to work with them to give them the really detailed support on why these things are there, and, finally, they can invite people to come in.
Last Thursday, there were 30 of us who went to Toronto and spent six or seven hours in dialogue with them on how they were getting along and where they were pointed. Those are all things that you can do, but it is complicated and intricate, and it is impossible to expect a minister to know about this. This is about the wiring diagrams of government. You can't expect ministers or members of Parliament to do it, but it's a good thing to find out a way of having it done.