Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Ronnie Campbell  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Bruce Sloan  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

I want to extend a very warm welcome to everyone.

Welcome everyone.

Colleagues, this is the first meeting to receive the 12 chapters of the Auditor General's annual report.

We welcome Sheila Fraser, this country's Auditor General. She's accompanied by three assistant auditors generals: Hugh McRoberts, Doug Timmins, and Ronnie Campbell.

Colleagues, what I propose to do is start the meeting now, go for two hours, then adjourn ten minutes early to deal with the minutes of the steering committee, which was held last week. Also there's a request for a witness that I'd like to discuss with the committee.

At this point, we turn the floor over to you, Mrs. Fraser.

3:45 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am very pleased to be here to present my November 2006 report which was tabled last week in the House of Commons. As you mentioned, I am accompanied by Assistant Auditors General Douglas Timmins, Hugh McRoberts and Ronnie Campbell.

This report covers a broad array of government activities, from the government's system for managing spending, to public service ethics, to contract management, to programs that contribute to the health and well-being of Canadians. The report includes four audits that we had planned to report last spring. Because of changes to the parliamentary calendar, as a result of the federal election, we deferred reporting them until now, with an update of our audit findings.

Let me begin with how the federal government makes decisions about spending public funds.

The expenditure management system is at the heart of government operations, because every government activity involves spending. Over the last six years, federal spending has grown from $162 billion to $209 billion a year.

An effective system to manage spending is essential to getting the results the government wants and to being accountable to Canadians for what is done on their behalf.

We found that the current system does not routinely challenge ongoing programs to determine whether they are still relevant, efficient, and effective. I am concerned that the system focuses on challenging new spending proposals and pays too little attention to ongoing spending.

Also, in many cases, the distribution of funding is not aligned with what is needed to deliver the program.

Finally, we found that departments rely more and more on supplementary estimates to get funding for some items, instead of including them in the main estimates. This means that Parliament does not see the full range of proposed spending when it approves the annual spending plans.

The government is reviewing the expenditure management system, and I encourage it to resolve the weaknesses we have identified.

However, good systems in themselves are not enough. They must be applied correctly and ethically. Departments and agencies can take several formal measures to ensure proper conduct. In Chapter 4, we examined key aspects of these measures in the RCMP, Correctional Service Canada, and the Canada Border Services Agency.

We found that these public safety agencies have ethics programs but that many employees are not aware of them.

Also, only about half of the employees believe their organizations would act on reports of misconduct, and many do not think those who report misconduct in the workplace are generally respected.

It takes more than formal programs alone to encourage employees to report wrongdoing by colleagues. Employees have to be confident that management will take action on reports of wrongdoing.

Heads of agencies in particular should demonstrate the highest ethical standards of integrity, and when they fail to do so, public trust and confidence in government suffer. In chapter 11, unfortunately, we report one case of unethical behaviour by a senior official, the former correctional investigator.

The behaviour we observed on the part of the former correctional investigator, and the fact that it persisted over a long period of time and was not reported, are extremely disturbing.

This kind of conduct is certainly not typical of the public service, and I would caution all not to generalize from isolated examples to the public service as a whole. In my experience, the majority of public servants adhere to the high standards expected of them.

In Chapter 9, we looked at the problems related to the RCMP pension and insurance plans. These problems came to light only after employees complained.

We found that the RCMP responded adequately to an investigation of abuse and waste, but we also found that broader issues remain.

The RCMP needs to find a way to ensure that investigations of its actions are -- and are seen to be -- independent and unbiased. It also needs to assess the impact of a recent court decision on cases that warrant disciplinary action.

In Chapter 3, we note that the federal government still has problems managing large information technology projects. These projects involve a lot of money, and it's important that the rules and processes in place for managing them be rigorously followed.

In the last three years, the federal government has approved funding of $8.7 billion for new business projects with significant use of IT.

Although a framework of best practices for managing large IT projects has existed since 1998, we found several of the same problems we have reported in the past. Only two of the seven large IT projects we examined met all the criteria for well-managed projects.

The persistence of these longstanding problems is extremely troubling, not only because they involve large public investments, but also because of lost opportunities to improve business practices and services to Canadians.

This report also includes two chapters on major contracts that had serious shortcomings in the way they were awarded and in how they were managed.

In chapter 5, we looked at the handling of two contracts to relocate members of the Canadian Forces, the RCMP, and the federal public service. In 2005, the program handled the relocation of 15,000 employees at a cost of about $272 million. Government contracts should be awarded through a process that is fair, equitable, and transparent. We found that these contracts were not, despite various warning signs. The request for proposals contained incorrect information, which gave an unfair advantage to the bidder who had the previous contract. The management of these contracts also had serious shortcomings, and in fact, members of the Canadian Forces were overcharged for the services provided to them.

In chapter 10, we found that the government failed to respect basic requirements in awarding and managing a major health benefits contract. This contract, worth millions of dollars, was awarded even though Public Works and Government Services Canada did not ensure that all the mandatory requirements were met, and for the next seven years, Health Canada managed the contract without respecting basic financial controls.

I am encouraged to see that the contract management issues in Health Canada have since been corrected.

We also looked at how Health Canada allocates funding to its regulatory programs.

In Chapter 8, we looked at three programs that regulate the safety and use of products commonly used by Canadians: consumer products such as cribs, medical devices such as pacemakers, and drug products such as prescription drugs.

In an area so critically important to Canadians, Health Canada needs to know what levels of monitoring and enforcement its regulatory programs must carry out to meet its responsibilities, and what resources are needed to do the work.

We found that Health Canada does not have this information and therefore cannot demonstrate that it is meeting its responsibilities as a regulator.

In chapter 7, we looked at how Indian and Northern Affairs Canada manages the treaty process with first nations in British Columbia on behalf of the Government of Canada. The Auditor General of British Columbia also presented a report last week on the provincial government's role in the process. This treaty process is important to all Canadians. Among other things, it could help first nations people in B.C. improve their standard of living, and it could result in significant gains to the economy.

Since negotiations began in 1993, one final agreement has been initialled and two more are seen as imminent. However, no treaty has been signed and costs continue to grow. We found that the federal government needs to better manage its part in the B.C. treaty process. Negotiating treaties is complex, it takes time, and it can be very difficult. The government needs to take these challenges into account and rethink its strategies based on a realistic timeline.

In Chapter 6, we report on the Old Age Security program. Approximately 4 million people receive Old Age Security benefits, amounting to about $28 billion a year. The number of beneficiaries is expected to double in the next 25 years. Errors that affect even a small percentage of clients can still represent a very large number and be very costly.

We found payment errors in fewer than one per cent of applications. We are pleased at this low rate of error. We are also pleased to see measures such as an outreach program and a simpler application process to make Old Age Security more accessible to seniors.

We also looked at a case where the government created an obstacle to the effective operation of a foundation that it established to support its environmental goals.

In chapter 12, we noted that a clause inserted by the Treasury Board Secretariat in the government's most recent funding agreement with Sustainable Development Technology Canada prevented the board from making decisions at any given meeting where the majority of members present were federal appointees.

Finally, two chapters of this report note that we were unable to audit certain aspects of government operations because we were denied access to information and analysis collected and prepared by the Treasury Board Secretariat. Public servants based their denial of access on a narrow interpretation of a 1985 order in council that spelled out our access to cabinet documents.

After numerous discussions with government officials, the issue was finally resolved three weeks ago through the issuance of a new order in council that clearly acknowledges my need for access to the analyses performed by the Treasury Board Secretariat, and I thank the government for responding to our concerns.

That concludes our opening statement, Mr. Chairman. We would now be happy to take your questions.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mrs. Fraser. Thanks for your assistance here today.

Before turning the floor to Mrs. Ratansi, I want to urge members to keep your questions short, to the point, and as brief as possible. I don't think we're going to change the Auditor General's view or opinion with any three-minute preambles. Again, we'd like to hear short answers.

Ms. Ratansi, for eight minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you, Auditor General.

Thank you to all your staff who are here with you.

I'm looking at all these chapters. As an auditor, I know how much work goes into that. We see the underlying issues emerging year after year.

As parliamentarians, we try to set the legislative parameters under which the government is to operate. There is legislation, there are principles of operation, and there are best practices. We have to work with the bureaucracy to ensure that taxpayers' dollars are used effectively and efficiently.

You say there have been improvements, but there are issues that keep emerging. We have checks and balances, like you, to rely on. What can we do better as legislators to ensure that, despite the contracting practices and procedures that have been instituted, we make things better?

You talked about expenditure management, and you talked about the focus on new spending rather than ongoing spending. Because the ongoing spending has gone through its checks and balances, do people ignore it? Help me to get control of the wheel.

Was that short enough?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Let me make a few comments on the expenditure management system.

The system we looked at was largely put in place during a period of government restraint after program review. Expenditures were cut, and there was I think a lot of attention given to any new spending proposal, I guess on the assumption that there was this other exercise going on at program review at the same time, which was looking at programs across government.

That system has continued, even though we are now in a period of surplus, and as we mention in the report, a system designed for a period of restraint is not necessarily the best one in a time of surplus. What is happening is that the ongoing spending in fact gets very little challenge or review, except for these ad hoc exercises that governments will go through from time to time. There is no systematic ongoing review of programs, which one would expect.

The other issue is that when new spending is looked at, government doesn't go back to see what existing programs are there and whether there are existing programs that should be modified, cancelled, or adapted to align with the new program.

There needs to be a better look at expenditures as a whole. Government has certainly indicated that they agree with this. They are conducting their own review and would appear to be coming up with many of the same conclusions we have. There has been I think some discussion about introducing a regular, ongoing evaluation of programs.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

In 2004-05, there was an expenditure management review, and in that expenditure management review, the purpose was to look at dead wood within programs. If we're not at war, for example, why do we need tanks? I'm just giving you a classic example. They tried to bring about efficiency in the way we spend the dollars.

This was done during the surplus time. When this took place under surplus.... Is it something in the mechanism by which the bureaucracy operates, or how does it happen? Governments can change and the stability is the bureaucracy. What is it that needs to be done to ensure that somebody is at the wheel?

4 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Let me use the example of the expenditure review that was conducted. It was a bit of an ad hoc exercise, with an objective of savings that would be reallocated to other programs. It wasn't an ongoing review whereby, say, programs would be looked at every five, seven, or ten years in a sort of constant review of programs.

We note in the report that the departments we looked at that participated in that review, while they came up with the amount of savings that was the objective, really didn't have a mechanism for doing it. They don't have really good performance information. They did find the savings, but it tended to be an ad hoc kind of exercise.

There needs to be a more systemic exercise, based on good performance information and evaluation of programs, to say whether these programs continue to be relevant, economic, and effective.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Who should be putting those mechanisms in place? Should it be we, the parliamentarians, who should legislate it? This is very operational, and I am trying to get my head around it. When you're given these parameters to operate within, when you're told this is the business practice, a best business practice—and I'm sure bureaucracy is looking at best business practice—who tells them how to turn their wheel around to say “now we're in surplus, here is what you should be looking at”?

4 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

It would be a combination of the central agencies: the Privy Council Office, the Minister of Finance, and the management board—the Treasury Board Secretariat. The Treasury Board Secretariat is the agency that tends to carry out these reviews and offer the recommendations government-wide.

I do not believe the solution would be in legislation, but parliamentarians, in their reviews of estimates with departments, might want to ask, have you conducted an evaluation of your programs? How many have you done? What have been the results? I think if there were that kind of questioning from parliamentarians, it might also encourage departments to move down that path.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you.

I'll just turn this over to my colleague, Borys.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thanks for appearing before us.

In this brief time and in the second round, I'll be addressing chapter 9.

I was quite perturbed. Our RCMP officers put their lives on the line in their line of duty, in protecting us, and it's extremely worrisome that their pension and insurance policies were in fact abused. From your audit in chapter 9, I pretty much identified three pretty grave issues—and I'll be asking you if I'm correct on this.

One deals with Mr. Dominic Crupi hiring a consultant to circumvent government staffing regulations. I believe the person was hired for about $443,000, and over the next period of months, what took place, according to your own report, is that people were hired at double the rates for jobs that were already completed. An investigation showed that about 49 out of 65 casual employees were family and friends. That is quite disturbing.

On the second issue, it appears that Mr. Crupi, once again, was involved in a scheme that circumvented regular government rules. There was an ongoing relationship with Great-West Life as the carrier of the insurance policies for RCMP officers. Mr. Crupi went to Morneau Sobeco and asked them to help write an analysis for outside contracting. Then it was arranged that Great-West Life would be the recipient of payments, for which they would get a 15% fee for doing no work. And because there was an ongoing relationship, Morneau Sobeco actually wrote the analysis for outside contracting and ended up being the beneficiary of this. We're talking about millions of dollars that have gone astray.

The third issue is that when somebody stepped forward and blew the whistle, a criminal investigation began and Commissioner Zaccardelli shut it down two days later. With a little digging, I found out that Mr. Crupi's superior, the person he reported to, a Mr. Jim Ewanovich, had a daughter who was one of the people hired straight out of university at a significantly higher rate than was acceptable. It also turns out that this Mr. Ewanovich was in fact appointed by Commissioner Zaccardelli.

So a criminal investigation began and got shut down two days later, and then a process began that would finally result, in August 2006, in the RCMP deciding not to pursue any disciplinary action, as too much time had elapsed. All the individuals involved in these three schemes, or the two schemes and the investigation, at this point have all taken early retirement and have received bonuses, and the pension and insurance funds are still out a significant sum of money.

Have I properly understood the gist of this report in chapter 9?

4:05 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Essentially, yes.

Our chapter was not so much to look at what had happened but rather at whether we thought the RCMP had dealt with the case and the allegations that had been brought forward in an appropriate manner.

There were serious issues with human resource practices. There were serious issues with contracting. There was an internal investigation done. And then they brought in the Ottawa Police Service to do an investigation.

Our conclusion was that they had dealt with it adequately. There are a couple of issues, though, that we think need to be resolved.

One is that the memorandum with the Ottawa Police Service indicated that the Ottawa Police Service would be reporting to someone in the RCMP. They assured us that they conducted their investigation independently, but as a minimum, this could give the perception that they were not independent. There is no policy in place for when independent investigations are done about the RCMP operation. So that needs to be corrected.

The other issue that needs to be looked at, going forward, is on the disciplinary action, because there was an appeals court decision in February 2006 that affected their ability to take disciplinary action.

Under the RCMP Act, they must begin disciplinary action within a year of becoming aware of an incident. The RCMP have always treated that year as being at the end of a criminal investigation, so they would do them sequentially. This was appealed. At the appeals court, the judge ruled they had to begin from the moment that senior management became aware of an impropriety or a suspected impropriety. This will have to change their way of doing it, or they will have to change something in the act to define that one-year period. By the time this decision came out in February 2006, it was too late for them to take action on this particular case.

So it was because of that court decision.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Thank you, Mrs. Fraser.

You have eight minutes, Mr. Laforest.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Good day, Ms. Fraser, gentlemen. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Madam Auditor General, with respect to Chapter 5 on the relocation of members of the Canadian Forces, RCMP and Federal Public Service, you found, after conducting a series of analyses, that the two-part contract in this case had not been awarded through a fair and equitable process.

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

That's correct.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Since you've specifically used the words “fair” and “equitable”, we must therefore conclude that some individuals or companies were treated unfairly. In your opinion, given your experience as Auditor General and having observed your predecessor, have there frequently been cases identified in government where individuals or groups have been treated unjustly and where, through lack of fairness or justice, the situation was not corrected?

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

That's a difficult question to answer, because many instances come to mind where the government did not take any action until such time as the courts ruled that someone's rights have been violated.

In this particular instance, we found that the process was clearly not fair and equitable. However, it's a different matter to say that someone's rights were violated. In any event, according to speculation and newspaper reports, legal action could quite possibly be taken and that will determine if someone is entitled to compensation.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Basically what you're saying in your report is that the process wasn't fair and equitable, but that the outcome is not necessarily in the domain of the Auditor General.

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

That's correct. The government will have to decide whether or not to take any action.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I understand. You also said in reference to this same chapter that members of the Canadian Forces had been overcharged for the property management services stipulated in the contract. By how much were they overcharged? Do you have an amount? Does this affect all members who were relocated? Who specifically was affected?

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

All members benefited from the same services. I would simply point out that a mistake was made in terms of the overall level of management services provided. When a member relocated but kept his house and rented it out, he could request management services. The number of persons requesting such services was incorrect. Indications were that slightly over 7,000 persons a year required these services when in reality, over a six-year period, less than 200 persons needed them. There was a glaring error in the numbers and the company that had been awarded the contract previously had presented a bid of zero dollar for its services. Therefore, it should not have billed for any kind of services. We reviewed a dozen or so cases where members of the Canadian Forces paid between $800 and $8,00 for these services, when in fact they should not have been paying anything.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

To whom was this money paid?

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

To the firm that secured the contract.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

To the firm that secured the contract, when in fact the contract should never have been awarded to it in the first place?

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada