Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 5th, 2006

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Fine then.

I agree with what you're suggesting because the situation is indeed highly questionable.

As noted earlier, a contract of this magnitude means a lot of business for a company that handles relocations, given the size of Canada. We already have an idea in our minds of what goes on.

For example, Mr. and Mrs. Smith pick up stakes and move. They must relocate to a new area, generally some distance away.

Do you know if Royal LePage actually handles the move and if, once people have arrived at their new destination, they are referred to another Royal LePage office for assistance in purchasing a house or finding rental accommodation?

[Sheila Fraser]

We didn't look into this particular situation per se, although I'm told that Canadian Forces and RCMP members are free to do business with whatever company they like.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I see. It's up to them to find companies working in this particular field.

I see that in some areas, it was more difficult. However, when you conducted your investigation for audit purposes, were people willing to cooperate? I'm talking here about various federal agencies or departments.

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes. We did not encounter any problems. People were very cooperative.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I see. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Monsieur Laforest.

Mr. Lake, five minutes.

I'm sorry. Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Concerning paragraphs 5.96 and 5.97, how uncommon is it to take a sample of ten of any kind of audit and then find all ten flawed and outside of the bounds of the contract?

[Sheila Fraser]

It's pretty unusual, actually, yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

If that's epidemic, we're talking about tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars of overpayments here. Is that correct?

[Sheila Fraser]

Perhaps. This again is for these management services. We indicated that over a six-year period there were less than 200 of them. So there are not thousands of people necessarily affected by this, but the people, obviously.... It's the individual who pays for these services, so a member of the Canadian Forces who paid $8,000 unnecessarily was obviously affected.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, and out of their own pocket, not reimbursable.

[Sheila Fraser]

Out of their own pocket, that's right.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

And if it's a 100% hit ratio here, and it continues, there's a substantial amount of money. We have not only a distrust level of the general public in the bidding process and flawed management in it, but now we have individuals in our public service who have been harmed as well.

There were over 30,000 submissions in the Canadian Forces--and from what I see from your wording, it's even worse at the RCMP--that have been submitted for reimbursement that haven't been verified.

[Sheila Fraser]

There's a very significant backlog, that's right. They have not gone through the proper verification before paying the amount, or shortly thereafter. So the management of the contract afterwards is also not satisfactory.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I can see why you agreed that we should probably revisit this whole thing, because right from the start the bidding process and the management is epidemic with flaws.

[Sheila Fraser]

I would remind the committee too that this audit was undertaken at a request from the committee, so it was in response to concerns that were raised here that we looked at this contract.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'd just like to ask you one more question, because I've covered a lot of areas, but is there anything else that you should draw our attention to as we're going to be investigating this more, on the aspects of this particular--

[Sheila Fraser]

I would encourage the committee to receive assurance from the departments that efforts are under way to identify all those who have overpaid and that reimbursement will be made to them.

There was an agreement with the recommendation that this be done, but we have not seen any action taken to date, and I think it would be good if the committee followed up on that.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

May I just follow up on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Two minutes.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Madam Fraser, there is a section in one of your reports--and I apologize, I should know what the chapter is--but you were talking about public servants not availing themselves of programs that teach people values and ethics. What chapter was--

[Sheila Fraser]

Chapter 4.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Chapter 4. I'm wondering if there is a real need and demand in our modern-day society that grown-up people have to be exposed to training programs on ethics and values. I thought before grade 3 I knew the difference between what was right and wrong, what stealing was all about, or dishonesty, or misconduct, and so on. We're talking about grown-up people here who have kids and everything else and we're talking about the need to have programs for them to teach them ethics and values.

Is there a big problem here in the public service that we need these programs?

[Sheila Fraser]

I believe the programs are necessary because there are certain norms and certain behaviours that are not acceptable in the public service but could be acceptable, for example, in the private sector.

So I think it is important that there be those sessions and those discussions with public servants just to remind them of what is acceptable, that there are different codes of behaviour, that there are things that you can do in certain enterprises that you can't do in the public service. And just to make people more aware of that I think is a good thing.