Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was space.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Georges Etoka
David Marshall  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Michelle d'Auray  President, Canada Economic Development
Carol Beal  Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Program Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Mario Arès  Regional Manager, Assets and Facilities Management, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Tim McGrath  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Bruce Sloan  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I would like to call the meeting to order and extend a very warm welcome to everyone here, especially the witnesses.

This hearing will go from 3:30 to 5:30, as allocated. It's pursuant to Standing Order 108, on chapter 7, “Acquisition of Leased Office Space” of the May 2006 Report of the Auditor General of Canada. It's not specifically on that report, but the issue of the leased space of Place Victoria in the city of Montreal was raised in the report. The committee had a number of inquiries about the transaction, and we felt, based on the information we received, it would be in the best interests of everyone if we had a hearing on this matter. That resulted in today's hearing.

We have with us today, from the Department of Public Works and Government Services, their deputy minister and accounting officer, Mr. David Marshall. With Mr. Marshall is Tim McGrath, the acting assistant deputy minister, real property branch; and Mr. Mario Arès, regional manager, assets and facilities management.

From the Canada Economic Development agency we have Michelle D' Auray, president.

From Infrastructure Canada we have Mrs. Carol Beal, the assistant deputy minister, program operations branch.

And of course from the Office of the Auditor General we have Mr. Bruce Sloan, who has been with us many times before.

Again I want to welcome each and every one of you.

Monsieur Laforest.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

A point of order, Mr. Chairman. This is not the first time we have this problem of documents being produced in French and English but with more documents in English than French.

I am referring to a document sent to us, through the clerk, by the Department of Public Works and Government Services, dated January 30. There are two documents in English, with tables, but only one in French.

We have called the clerk's office to know if the missing document was available in French. As a matter of fact, we don't receive French documents from PWGSC as quickly as English documents or we don't always receive the same documents than those provided in English.

I find that unacceptable, as I have already underlined to the committee. If necessary, we will submit a motion. If we have to submit a motion to receive the documents that we need to be able to do our work like the other members, we will do so. I expect to receive the same documents as of those provided in English.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Monsieur Laforest, you're totally correct that it's the law; it's not just the intention of this committee, it's the law that all documents be tabled in both official languages.

Perhaps I'll get the clerk to address the issue.

3:35 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Georges Etoka

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Yesterday, we received three electronic documents from the department, in both languages. However, there were three documents in English and only one in French. Today, we have received binders in both languages. The documents received yesterday are available today in both languages.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I have not had enough time to check the binder since we only got it when we came into this room.

I accept your answer but, from now on, I would like to receive the French documents at the same time as the English documents, that is to say two days ahead of time. French-speaking members should receive their documents at the same time as English-speaking members.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I agree 100%.

Mr. Williams.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

I want to reinforce what my colleague said, that the clerk should never distribute any documents unless they're in both official languages.

To have everything two days before the meeting may be a bit of a stretch, but I think it's always important that this country, as a bilingual country, does everything in two languages, not one followed by the other.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

That's the way we have to operate. I agree with you, by the way.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I would like to answer Mr. Williams. It is not any more difficult to provide the documents in both languages. It is a legal requirement. When we're told that it's more difficult to provide documents in both languages, it really means that they would be provided in one language and that it will be difficult to provide them in the other language. However, I believe the rule is that all documents should be given to us in both languages.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much.

Mr. Marshall, do you have opening remarks?

3:35 p.m.

David Marshall Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Members of the committee, we appreciate being here to discuss with you the subject of the leased office space at Place Victoria in Montreal, as it was reported in the Auditor General's report of May 2006.

As you mentioned, I have with me today Mr.Tim McGrath, our acting assistant deputy minister for real property, and Mr. Mario Arès of our department, who is the regional manager in the Montreal office of Public Works and Government Services.

To begin with, I'd like to mention that we have carried out a very extensive search of all our paper and electronic records in order to serve the committee as best we can. We are confident that all the documents requested that we have in our possession have now been submitted to the committee.

In addition, we took the time to prepare a flow chart that tied together the various documents and other recollections of our staff over a chronology of events relating to this transaction. I believe this is before the committee in both languages, with a key indicating wherever there is a document that relates to that particular point in the chronology. We would of course be prepared to walk through it with you to the extent it would be helpful to you.

Let me summarize what we have determined. In December 2000, Public Works and Government Services and our client, the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, began the process of finding the agency suitable premises, as their existing lease in Place Victoria was coming up for renewal and the premise was due for an extensive fit-up, as well as lacking space for expansion.

That was the requirement. Between December 2000 and May 2001, our two teams worked closely to finalize the requirements and develop a plan.

The recommended option, which was approved internally at Public Works and Government Services, was to go out to tender in the Montreal market for the requirement. Public Works officials proceeded on that basis and set in motion a series of steps that culminated in qualifying six bids, amongst which were included Place Bonaventure as well as Place Victoria.

Following an evaluation, on March 12, 2002 the bid from Place Bonaventure was judged to be the best value to the Crown.

Our Public Works and Government Services director general in Montreal personally called the deputy minister of the agency and received assurances that everything was still as originally planned and nothing had changed. On that basis, Place Bonaventure was informed that they were the winning bidder, thus committing the government to leasing that space. Shortly after this, on April 4, our assistant deputy minister for real property, who at the time was Carol Beal, who is here with us today, was advised that the client had changed its mind. The additional space was no longer needed, and they wished to stay in premises more suitable to their program. She was told a letter from the minister would follow.

On April 15 a letter was indeed received, signed by Minister Drouin, the minister for the development agency.

Our staff at this stage considered the request to be very late in the process, but clients have from time to time changed their minds, and we have tried as best we can to be helpful if at ail possible and to minimize the cost to the taxpayer in doing so.

In this case, at the time there was an anticipation that office space in Montreal would be rising in price; also, that there were other clients who needed new space in the downtown area. We made the decision that if we could get an acceptable rate for the Place Victoria space, the economics of leaving the agency in its current space and filling the Place Bonaventure with other tenants could be a viable option. If we could not negotiate a good lease renewal rate from Place Victoria, then we would have to insist that the agency move as originally planned.

As it turned out, we were able to negotiate a good rate with Place Victoria—30% lower than they had bid in the competitive tender process. In addition to not expanding, the agency agreed to forgo the fit-up they were due to receive.

Our analysis showed that with these factors and moving costs taken into account, the cost of letting the agency remain in Place Victoria was economically viable, and we'd be happy to walk you through that calculation. And in that sense it did comply with our rules to only allow clients to remain in situ if it was economically viable and advantageous to the crown.

Public Works was optimistic it could move other government tenants into the newly leased Place Bonaventure space. Despite best efforts, the process to backfill with other departments seeking additional space in Montreal's downtown core took longer than we'd hoped, resulting in a cost of unproductive rent of about $2.1 million to the taxpayer. I should point out that Public Works' vacancy rate at any time in its portfolio averages just 1.2% of available space, compared with an industry average of about 5%. So Public Works does, overall, have a very good record in maintaining full occupancy of the space it pays for.

This, Mr. Chairman, is as close to what happened as we can reconstruct at this time. As you may be aware, our practices have evolved since the above transaction took place. We have strengthened our oversight and risk management of such accommodation arrangements. Today we're more stringent in enforcing our real estate standards. We also ensure that clients and our minister are informed as early as possible of any incremental costs arising from a change of plans, and that these costs are properly assigned to those incurring them.

On a somewhat separate matter, we also intend to fully implement your committee's recommendations to disclose to Parliament each year the details of the additional costs incurred by any of our clients from the lack of adherence to policies and standards.

Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to answer questions the committee may have.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Marshall.

Madame d'Auray or Mrs. Beal, do you have any preliminary remarks you want to address to the committee?

3:45 p.m.

Michelle d'Auray President, Canada Economic Development

No, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Carol Beal Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Program Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

No, not at this time.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Before we start the first round, I have a concern I want to raise with you, Mr. Marshall. I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but it is a very serious concern. This started off as really not an extensive matter that the Office of the Auditor General investigated, but it was part of a larger investigation, as you know, and as part of our deliberations we asked for additional information from your department.

I wrote your department on September 22. We got a reply on October 24. The carriage of this matter was basically with the steering committee, and the steering committee felt the response was largely deficient, that we really didn't get the information we were looking for. We were looking for all correspondence and a financial analysis. We wrote again to the department December 4 and we got more documents on December 19. We got more documents....

I'm aware that it would have been a lot better if we'd had a much better disclosure from our original request of September 22. I know you probably didn't write it yourself, but the person who prepared the response to my letter of September 22 didn't do you or your department or Parliament any favours at all. I want to point that out.

Now we're going to go to the first round, colleagues.

Mr. Williams.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Thank you.

I have one question. The Auditor General pointed out in her report a letter from the Secretary of State. Is that letter from the Secretary of State in this massive binder I have here?

Tab 23, okay.

Mr. Chairman, I'm happy now.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.

We're going to go to the first round, eight minutes. Again, I ask members to keep your questions short and relevant; witnesses keep your answers short and to the point.

Mr. Rodriguez, eight minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm trying to understand something. Why did CED not tell you earlier that they intended to stay put? What happened in this process? What made you start looking for other space and then, suddenly, decide to stay where you were?

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

David Marshall

Michelle, do you want to answer that?

3:45 p.m.

President, Canada Economic Development

Michelle d'Auray

To answer this question, Mr. Chairman, we have tried to look at all the documents that would shed some light on the situation. Until we received the correspondence from the Secretary of State, the department always referred to a move, and that is also what is mentioned in all the correspondence relating to this issue.

According to the letter from the Secretary of State - and that is the only document I can rely on - the agency did not have the same needs any more, or the space they had at Place Victoria was sufficient for their needs. Therefore, the decision to move could be reversed. Then, the Secretary of State asked if it would be possible to negotiate a lease with Place Victoria .

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Reading the letter from the Secretary of State, I can see that they changed their minds. That's what he says in his letter but, originally, why did CED want to move?

3:50 p.m.

President, Canada Economic Development

Michelle d'Auray

The lease was due to expire on March 31, 2003, if I remember correctly. In fact, that's what the documents say. That being so, a normal process would have been launched to look at our needs in order to see if we were meeting the standards of the time and if we had to move. The analysis and the studies led us in that direction since the agency, at the time, wanted both to keep its office on Montreal Island, at Place Victoria, and to expand. During the first discussions, we came to the conclusion that the space used by Canada Economic Development at Place Victoria was not sufficient.

During the analysis, the decision was made to move and to relocate the Montreal Island office outside of headquarters. The needs relating to that space having disappeared, even if we were to expand, the final conclusion was that the existing space would be sufficient.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Who made the final decision? Was it the Secretary of State who said that he wanted to stay put? Is that how it works?

3:50 p.m.

President, Canada Economic Development

Michelle d'Auray

I will ask my colleague to tell you about the final decision.

The request sent up by the Secretary of state to the minister of Public Works was intended to know if it would be possible to stay at Place Victoria. That started a process of determining if it would be appropriate for the government to satisfy the request from the Secretary of state. To that end, we did a cost-benefit analysis.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I am trying to see who has the final word because the Auditor General seems to say that the Minister of Public Works has the power to impose his choice, which he did not do in this case. He let CED decide. Is it common practice for Public Works to call for tenders, to find appropriate space at a better price and, in the end, to decide that it doesn't matter and that CED can do what they want?