Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was space.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Canada Economic Development
Mr. Chair, I cannot make that assumption because I do not have any documentation that would lead me to conclude that one way or another.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I saw the letter from Claude Drouin, member of Parliament, to the minister saying “We'd like to stay where we are”. He was a politician. He was a member of the House of Commons. He was a politician. Now you are saying you have no correspondence from the bureaucracy of EDC or your predecessor or from you telling him that you would like to stay where you were. There is no correspondence suggesting that you requested this. So this was a political directive.
President, Canada Economic Development
I will answer it regarding the specific request, which was whether there was documentation from the department to the minister to that effect. The answer is no.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Then we have to assume it was initiated in the minister's office, because there is no correspondence prior to that.
The decision was made that you were going to stay. Was there any correspondence from the minister's office beyond the letter signed by Mr. Goodale and Mr. Drouin about accepting the lease? Was there any other correspondence?
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Other than these two letters we have been provided with.
President, Canada Economic Development
There is internal correspondence about advising the employees once the decision was made to remain where we were. All the documentation we have was provided to the committee.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Going back to this notion of the minister's being involved, Mr. McGrath, about the minister's being informed of all leases that come up for renewal, this is not normal protocol. Ministers decide policy, and civil servants enact the policy. Why was the minister being informed?
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
It's certainly not unusual for a minister of a department to know the various transactions that are going on.
Conservative
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
It's just a policy to keep him informed. That's correct.
Conservative
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Not for the same number of transactions. Certainly our minister likes to know if there are leases above 2,000 metres that require direct negotiation. He likes to know about those because he has to answer the various questions. But, no, certainly we don't advise the minister's office of all of the transactions we're doing.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
With Mr. Gagliano requiring this information, was this strictly for Quebec, or was it for any other region or for all regions of Canada?
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
It was for all regions in Canada, if I recall properly, but for Quebec it was for transactions of 500 metres or greater.
Conservative
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I'm very disturbed, Mr. Chairman, about direct political desire to be intimately involved...maybe not involved, but certainly knowledgeable about the leasing of space in the minister's backyard, if I can say that. This doesn't smell very good at all.
I'm quite concerned that EDC did not put up any kind of fuss. Having decided that they wanted more space and better space and a retrofit of the space they were in, or anything to make the place better, they just sat back and accepted what they had. The department tried to justify it by jumping through hoops and said they saved on the moving costs and didn't do the retrofit of the building, so they were actually not that bad off after all. I think this is not very good. I find that it smells of a cover-up, Mr. Chairman.
Let me go back and ask Mr. Marshall and Mr. McGrath—and I know they weren't there at the time—
January 31st, 2007 / 4:40 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Was there any indication that the minister was providing any direction on these leases at all, Mr. Marshall?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Williams, if I may, I can ask Carol Beal, who was in Mr. McGrath's position at the time, what her sense was about direction. I think she would be the most relevant person.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Program Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Chair, with respect to this lease, I did not personally receive any direction. I was asked a number of questions regarding the lease, and we interacted with our deputy or associate deputy at the time with respect to those questions. I do not feel we received direct instruction from the Minister of Public Works of the day with respect to that.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
My question, Mr. Chairman, was whether there was any direction, not on this specific lease, but any direction on any lease.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Program Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I could not speak for all of the leases. I could speak for the ones in which I interacted, and I believe we did have a fair amount of interaction with respect to a number of leases. However, interaction is not always deemed to be interference or direction, Mr. Chairman.
