Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 5th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sgro, you have four minutes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

You must find discouraging the fact that only 44% of your recommendations over the last four years have been followed through, after all the work that goes into them, and the expense. You must find this discouraging—or am I just expecting more than what's getting produced?

[Sheila Fraser]

Obviously we would like to see the percentage much higher than this. The Treasury Board Secretariat is undertaking a review to see why it is so low. We haven't seen the results, but we need to see their analysis as well and see what corrective action should be taken.

One of the things we've tried to do more recently, since 2002, is produce what we call the status report, which we'll be coming with next week. It will go back to re-audit issues and call attention to whether progress is being made or not. When you see issues recurring and recurring, a good hearing on it sometimes will help focus the attention.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Is there not someone in your team who, as you complete these audits, monitors the progress of those recommendations? They're key to the work you've done. To allow them to continue without making the changes necessary—

[Sheila Fraser]

We do a monitoring every year, asking the departments to tell us what progress they've made. There can be valid reasons why things don't get implemented; there are different priorities.... Priorities can be set, and the issues we looked at may not be the priority at that particular time. There are changes in senior management within departments as well.

Also, quite honestly, perhaps some of our recommendations aren't as good as they should be, too. And not all recommendations are equal. Even when we go back to re-audit.... I remind members of the audit we did last year, in which we followed up on 37 recommendations in Indian and Northern Affairs. Even though, if you took the percentage, most of them were implemented, the most important ones weren't, so we gave them an unsatisfactory rating on it.

We need to look at that issue as well, but I think we need to understand from the government side why they aren't moving ahead, and whether there is—

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Quite clearly, they don't agree with you.

[Sheila Fraser]

I think that could be part of it, that it's easier to say “I agree” and then do nothing than to say “I disagree”.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Exactly. I'll ignore it and fold the book up and throw it in the drawer, and I won't have to be bothered until she knocks at my door the next time—right?

Again, departmental managers will change and say, “I thought that guy followed up”, and all the rest of it. I think a key part of getting this work done is the follow-up—“I'm going to come back in six months and I'll appoint whoever was working on the audit and expect a report back in six months' time.” Then they'll know that in another six months—I don't care who their manager is—they can expect another follow-up to see that those audit recommendations were done.

There were six audits in the plans and priorities that were supposed to have been tabled on November 28, but that weren't. Why were those cancelled?

[Sheila Fraser]

For a lot of them, it's not that they're cancelled; they're simply delayed. They could come in a future report. The issues come up. I think there's one in particular. I know that NORAD was moved from November to April. NORAD is one. There are other ones. The human resource modernization, too, has been deferred out because of a lot of different things that are going on in the Public Service Commission. So in many cases, it's not that they're cancelled; it's just that we've moved them out further.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Let me sneak in a quick question.

On page 18 of your report, you talk about reporting out in the fall of 2006 on the theme of climate change. How do you report on the theme of climate change when you have a government that is just now starting to recognize climate change? You're talking about a theme.

[Sheila Fraser]

That was the report of the Commissioner of the Environment, and all of the audits in that were around climate change. So we looked at different aspects related to climate change.

So it wasn't, for example, like an Auditor General report where you have a whole series of issues. These were a number of audits that were all about that particular topic.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

Mr. Lake, you have four minutes. And I remind members that four minutes can go by pretty quickly, so be focused in your questions.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I'll be quick.

One of the things you talk about on page 9 of your report on plans and priorities here is information technology. I notice that you have, I think, over $2 million in one-time expenditures over the next two years. I know this is something that has been important to you as an overriding theme in many of your reports that we've discussed. What exactly are you getting for the $2 million? How will it help you do your job better?

[Sheila Fraser]

We have two major systems that we will be changing or implementing in the office. One is our accounting system, so we will be moving to a new accounting system. The other one is the records management system within the office. Many departments in government as well are moving to new records management and information management services.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So these will be state-of-the-art systems?

[Sheila Fraser]

Well, I hope they will be good, reliable systems. In fact, for the accounting system, I would say we are going to a less sophisticated system than we have right now. It would have been very costly for us to continue on with the system that we have. When we analyze the options, we think the one we are getting is going to do the job.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I want to touch on the Federal Accountability Act, and you touched on it a little bit in your opening statement. Could you tell us how this will impact your work? Particularly, I'm interested in knowing what you're looking forward to the most, or what you will be able to use the most in the Federal Accountability Act.

[Sheila Fraser]

To be honest, Mr. Chair, I'm not sure the Federal Accountability Act is going to change—We have been given an additional mandate to be able to audit recipients of grants and contributions, but we expect to use that very rarely, because we think it's really the responsibility of government departments to put in place the systems and practices to make sure the funds are being used appropriately.

There are, of course, many other changes being introduced in there. The whole accounting officer issue, I think, depending on how it is implemented, could have an impact, obviously, with the relationship here with the committee and the departments. So I think that part of it could change. There are other more minor changes. For example, we've now become subject to access to information, which we weren't before.

So those are things that we have to manage. But I think the biggest impact could be the introduction of the accounting officer.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay, and here is a final question from me.

This is my first year on this committee. There are a couple of us on this side of the table for whom that's the case, and I know there are some new members on the other side as well. Obviously you have a substantial budget, a substantial staff, and everything else. How can we as a committee make the best use of your efforts and the efforts of your office?

[Sheila Fraser]

By holding hearings on our reports and issuing your own reports.

That, to us, is where our work really has value, when the committee holds a hearing on the report. If you agree with our conclusions, then departments are asked for action plans as to how they're going to deal with things going forward. Our reports are really all about trying to make government management better, so if we take that proactive approach about what the departments are doing over what timeline, then we will get better management.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Do you want to elaborate any further on your observations in terms of the way we operate as a committee?

[Sheila Fraser]

No, thank you.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay, fair enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

Monsieur Laforest, quatre minutes.