Evidence of meeting #39 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tax.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Richard Flageole  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Nancy Cheng  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I call the meeting to order and extend to everyone here a welcome to this meeting.

Colleagues, this meeting is pursuant to the Standing Orders, and it is to receive the February 2007 report of the Auditor General of Canada, which was of course tabled in the House of Commons yesterday.

With us today is the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser. She is accompanied by four of her senior staff: Richard Flageole, assistant auditor general; Nancy Cheng, assistant auditor general; Andrew Lennox, assistant auditor general; and Lyse Ricard, assistant auditor general.

What I propose we do, members, as we have one motion to deal with, is that I'd like to start the meeting now, call upon the Auditor General for her opening remarks, and then adjourn at about ten after five to deal with Mr. Wrzesnewskyj's motion. And of course we will adjourn at 5:30 because we're going to have the bells at 5:30 and the vote at 5:45.

Mrs. Fraser, I turn it over to you now for your opening remarks.

3:30 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are very pleased to be here today to present my fifth status report, which was tabled in the House of Commons yesterday. I am also pleased that we're reporting satisfactory progress in five areas.

As you noted, I am accompanied by four assistant auditors general: Richard Flageole, who was responsible for the passport audit; Nancy Cheng, who was responsible for the audits on the social insurance number and the National Research Council; Andrew Lennox, who was responsible for the coast guard audit; and Lyse Ricard, who did the audit on heritage properties.

Status reports are particularly important because they show what departments and agencies have done to address recommendations from a selection of our past audits. In determining whether progress is satisfactory or unsatisfactory, we take into account the complexity of the issue and the amount of time that has passed since the original audit.

The Status Report shows how departments and agencies have acted on our concerns in seven specific areas. We revised the management of advertising and public opinion research activities, federal built heritage, leading-edge research, the Coast Guard's fleet and marine navigational services, passport services, the social insurance number, and international taxation.

Let me turn now to the areas where progress has been satisfactory.

I will begin with the management of advertising and public opinion research. Given the serious weaknesses that we identified in our 2003 audit of government advertising activities, this year's findings are good news.

We found that Public Works and Government Services Canada has made satisfactory progress in ensuring that advertising and public opinion research contracts are awarded in a fair and transparent manner. It used a competitive process to establish a pool of qualified firms who can provide advertising and public opinion research services. The process for choosing the agency of record was fair and transparent.

Departments have made satisfactory progress in ensuring that they plan for advertising activities and manage suppliers in accordance with the communications policy of the Government of Canada. I am pleased that the government did not create new rules and controls as a response to our previous report. Instead, it focused on following the rules that were already in place.

There was also progress in the area of international taxation. The globalization of the economy and growth in international investment have a significant impact on the taxes owed to Canada. This affects Canadian residents doing business abroad as well as non-residents earning income in Canada.

The use of tax havens by Canadians and abuse of tax treaties with other countries could divert tax away from Canada, and the amounts at risk could be significant. For example, the Canada Revenue Agency estimates that in 2005, Canadian corporations conducted $1.5 trillion in transactions with related parties in foreign countries. Non-residents paid over $4.9 billion in taxes last year on income earned in Canada.

We found that the agency is now better able to identify potential non-compliance with the tax rules on international transactions. It has taken steps to detect aggressive international tax planning schemes and has directed more resources to auditing international tax avoidance.

However, in some of the tax offices handling the highest-risk files, the agency still lacks sufficient expertise in international tax auditing. Taking into account the difficulty of retaining sufficient expertise, the agency needs to develop a consistent national approach to auditing taxpayers with international transactions.

Another area where globalization has a significant impact is passport services. In 2005, we reported that the passport office, now Passport Canada, was struggling to meet higher expectations for security and growing demands for service. Since then, it has dealt with an unprecedented demand, issuing over three million passports in 2005-06. High-demand pressures will continue, given the more stringent U.S. requirements for passports.

I am pleased at the progress Passport Canada has made in the relatively short time since our 2005 audit. The agency has clearly directed a major effort toward resolving the problems we had identified. For example, examiners now have appropriate tools and training to determine whether identity documents provided with passport applications are authentic. Passport Canada has also significantly enlarged its watch list and has used the information to refuse applications or to investigate them further.

But Passport Canada still has some major issues to resolve, particularly in the areas of security and identity verification. It faces a complex undertaking that will need the full cooperation of other government organizations at the federal, provincial, and territorial levels.

We also examined the progress made by the National Research Council in its management of leading-edge research. The NRC is the federal government's largest research organization. I'm pleased with the progress it has made toward implementing the recommendations from our audit in 2004.

The appointed council that governs the NRC's operations has strengthened its role, and the NRC's research institutes have taken steps to improve the way they manage research projects. We also noted satisfactory progress in several human resources management initiatives.

But action on some of our recommendations was delayed while the NRC laid the foundation for its new corporate strategy. It is important now that the organization meet its own milestones so it can fully address our recommendations.

Moving on to the conservation of federal built heritage—that is, historic buildings, battlegrounds, forts, and so on—I am pleased that Parks Canada has made satisfactory progress in addressing the concerns we raised in 2003 on the need for better protection of our built heritage. The agency has proposed a policy to strengthen the legal protection of federal built heritage and has improved its management tools.

Nevertheless, not all the problems have been resolved. The fate of heritage sites and buildings in the custody of federal organizations other than Parks Canada remains uncertain. The loss of heritage buildings and sites means that future generations will no longer have access to significant aspects of our history. It is therefore important that the federal government strengthen its conservation regime for built heritage. It also needs to set priorities to decide which heritage buildings and sites should be preserved.

Now let me turn to areas where we found unsatisfactory progress in implementing recommendations from previous reports. In those two areas, the problems are long-standing.

Let's start with the management of the social insurance number, which is used to issue billions of dollars in federal benefits to Canadians. It is also used widely outside the federal government. Even though Human Resources and Social Development Canada has improved several aspects of its management of the Social Insurance Number, two important issues, first reported nine years ago, remain unresolved.

First, the department cannot be sure of the quality of the information it retains in the social insurance register, the data base of personal information provided by everyone who has been issued a social insurance number. The department does not have goals for the quality of the information and does not measure it systematically.

Second, the policies on how federal departments may use the social insurance number are still unclear. This has led to inconsistent interpretations of the rules, which make it difficult for departments to ensure they use it appropriately.

This is the fourth time since 1998 that we have reported these two problems. The government should have resolved them by now. Good management of the social insurance number—including clear guidance on its use in the federal government—is more important than ever, in light of security concerns and the growing incidence of identity theft and fraud.

The other unsatisfactory area is the management of the coast guard fleet and marine navigational services. I am concerned that the coast guard has not solved long-standing management problems. It has not responded adequately to recommendations made a number of years ago, and many of the problems cited in our report are in fact similar to those raised in a 1983 audit.

The coast guard still operates largely as five regional coast guards, each with its own way of doing things. It has not become the strong national institution the government expects it to be.

Canadian mariners, like others around the world, also rely more and more on electronic navigation. While the coast guard is introducing new marine navigation services, it has been unable to develop strategies for traditional aids such as buoys and light stations, which are costly to maintain and operate and no longer serve their original purpose.

The coast guard has a history of failing to complete initiatives, partly because it takes on too much at once. It needs to decide on a few of the most urgent priorities and then get the job done.

In conclusion, audit by nature focuses on areas in need of improvement. I am very pleased to see that our work made a difference. This Status Report shows that the government has taken satisfactory action in the majority of the areas we revised this year.

Success can be attributed mostly to the setting of priorities, a strong commitment from senior management to achieve them, clear action plans, and support in the form of adequate resources to achieve the goals. Credit is due to the many public servants who have worked hard on resolving these issues.

Mr. Chair, my colleagues and I would now be pleased to answer any questions that committee members may have.

Merci.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mrs. Fraser.

Members, I propose that we start the first round of seven minutes, and then we'll hopefully be able to conclude the second round of five minutes.

The first person on the list is Mr. Rodriguez, for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being with us today, Madam Auditor. Welcome to you and the members of your team. I have several questions on a number of topics.

To begin with, I assume that the timeframe covered in your analysis of advertising activities refers in fact to the period of time when that specific report was released. So that means that when you indicate that things are working well now, you are referring to about two years of activities under the former government and eight or nine months of activities under the new government.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Indeed, we audited the advertising campaigns from fiscal 2004-2005, as well as all subsequent campaigns conducted through to August 2006.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I see. So it stretches back to your 2004 report and carries through almost to the present day. And overall the problems have been resolved.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I see, thank you.

We are facing a crisis right now as far as the passport issue is concerned. The situation seems to be getting worse; there is now a wait of up to 60 days to get a passport. From what I understand, there is no crisis management plan. There was no plan, and there still isn't one today. Is that correct?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Our audit was completed in August 2006, so obviously it didn't cover the recent period. However, we have reviewed the Passport Office's forecasts to take into account a potential increase in applications. We observed that there were forecasts at a corporate level, but that at an office-specific level, when you asked for a plan, they didn't have one.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I see, but the passport crisis we are currently facing could have been avoided, couldn't it, based on what you saw?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

It's hard to say. I think you'd need to ask the Passport Office whether other measures could have been taken. I think that you have to recognize that they obviously face some constraints, not only as far as staffing is concerned, but also when it comes to equipment, such as printing equipment, computer networks, and so on.

Nevertheless, I think they are questions you would be better off asking management at the Passport Office.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Okay. Let's come back to chapter 2 which deals with the conservation of built heritage. In your opinion, what is the current state of our heritage buildings?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I don't think it's possible to make a general statement about all the buildings. Parks Canada would have a better idea about the buildings it is responsible for, but as for other departments, such as National Defence and Public Works, I doubt that they would have such an inventory with the age of the various buildings and historic sites.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

It was my understanding following recent discussions that the state of our heritage buildings left something to be desired. I'm wondering if, in your opinion, enough money has been allocated to both protect these buildings and improve their current state. We enjoy the use of these buildings today, however ideally we would like to be able to pass them on to future generations.

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

The Auditor General is always wary of saying that a particular program should get more funding. You'll see that Parks Canada got more funding for infrastructure, and that a fair share of it was earmarked for the conservation of historic sites. The problem we're trying to highlight here is that there was an absence of priority-setting. Work has been carried out on a number of sites without really determining which sites are a top priority when it comes to conservation.

Furthermore, the historical sites protection system, which is the purview of other departments aside from Parks Canada, needs to be strengthened. These sites are only subject to a Treasury Board policy, and this policy only deals with buildings. You'll understand that at National Defence, for example, operations rather than conservation are the top priority.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

If you don't mind, I'd like to come back to passport services. In one passage, you state that Passport Canada still has some major issues to resolve, particularly in the areas of security and identity verification. I'm a little troubled by that, given that security is the most important concern when it comes to passports. You have to be able to verify the information provided by the applicant. Are there any immediate concrete changes that could be made?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Actually, the Passports Office has improved some of its methods, but the big challenge is determining whether the birth certificate and other documents submitted by applicants are valid.

The best way to do this quickly is by developing electronic links with provincial statistics offices. This process is underway in one or two provinces. I will call on my colleague Mr. Flageole to elaborate on this, but I must point out that this is an ongoing project that will be implemented over time.

3:45 p.m.

Richard Flageole Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Mr. Chairman, I should point out that since the audit, links have been established with Alberta and British Columbia. The other provinces still aren't covered, but this is a significant improvement nevertheless.

I think that it's crucial that links be established with Citizenship and Immigration Canada so that data can be verified. Moreover, the report stresses that quite a few improvements have been made in the area of security, but that there are ongoing problems when it comes to controlling employee access to the passport issuing system.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you. I'll conclude there since I don't have much time left.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

You have half a minute.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

There also seem to be some very serious concerns in the area of social insurance number management. It's my understanding that there are about three million more cards than there are residents. What's more, department officials can't guarantee that the information is accurate. It's the fourth time since 1998 that you have rapped them on the knuckles. What needs to be done for this to change?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I might suggest a parliamentary hearing and another action plan specifically dealing with these issues. You have to understand that the department has made a lot of progress in other areas. They've tightened security when it comes to issuing cards and have improved the temporary Canadian resident card series. There are two major issues that still need to be dealt with however, registry integrity, and the Treasury Board policy, which needs updating.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Rodriguez.

Monsieur Laforest, sept minutes, s'il vous plaît.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, Ms. Fraser. And good afternoon to your team.

Ms. Fraser, in your opening statement, and in reference to chapter 1 dealing with advertising and public opinion research, you referred to progress which has been satisfactory. You stated the following:

Given the serious weaknesses that we identified in our 2003 audit[...] this year's findings are good news.

I don't entirely share the same interpretation. Because the situation was very bad and has now improved, you said that things are better now. And yet, in two places in your report, you clearly state that progress is unsatisfactory, especially when it comes to the Government of Canada's Communications Policy. Under this policy, departments must submit research project descriptions to Public Works and Government Services Canada and advise it in advance of any research activities being contemplated.

In 2003, 20% of department officials involved in such projects did not comply with this policy. And yet, based on your research, there was no progress made in this regard. 80% of people complied and 20% didn't. So we are at square one.

Once again, according to the Government of Canada's Communications Policy, departments must submit work plan descriptions before commencing work to Public Works and Government Services Canada. You carried out a contract-value-based assessment and it turns out that the situation in that regard is even worse: for contracts over $200,000 I think, this directive wasn't complied with in 60% of cases. There was an 85% non-compliance rate for small contracts. To my mind, the problem is big enough to cast doubt on what you consider to be an improvement.

It's possible that considerable improvements have been made in some areas but there are still a number of gaps. Department and program officials could conduct a poll which may be used for unjustifiable political purposes.

Were the same activities and the same departments involved in each instance of non-compliance with the Government of Canada's Communications Policy?