Public Accounts Committee on May 18th, 2006

[Sheila Fraser]

We believe the policies and the Financial Administration Act are absolutely clear on how this transaction and these costs should have been reported.

Government arrived at a different conclusion. They can say this is their interpretation based on a legal opinion, but of course they won't disclose publicly what the legal opinion is, so we have tried to take the arguments they have given us and have shown why, in the case of each of the arguments, it doesn't hold water for us.

We also see indications, as we note in the report, that even after the decision was made not to request supplementary estimates, there was still disagreement within government as to how the accounting should have occurred.

So I don't think government itself was totally in agreement on this issue. A decision was taken, and we believe the accounting and the subsequent effects were incorrect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Kasurak.

[Peter Kasurak]

Let me add to this that we also didn't see any subsequent change in the government's application of its conclusions about this case to any other case. That once again tends to cloud the issue, from our point of view.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Again I can't speak for the steering committee, but I hope we have those officials come before this committee to answer those specific questions.

The second area I want a comment on is following up on Mr. Christopherson's comment dealing with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. They have been before this committee on many occasions. There have been a lot of problems, I would suggest, over the years, and they don't seem to be getting any better.

One of the biggest problems this committee has found, and we've made it part of our recommendation, is the turnover in the deputies. I think they've had about five deputies in the last eight years, and even the last deputy just seemed to be getting going in the department. I heard last week that the government has taken the deputy who's there, after about a year and three quarters or a two-year tenure, and moved him to Environment, and they have moved in someone who has never been a deputy in Ottawa before and has had no experience with Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Obviously he's now getting briefed and is finding out where the washrooms are, and this is going to take a six- or eight-month period. He's going to come before this committee to talk about the wonderful things he's going to do, so I just see the whole cycle repeating itself.

Do you have any comment? You've lived through this over the last five years, Ms. Fraser, but do you have any comments? This is not the way the private sector would operate their businesses. Do you have any comment as to how this evolution of deputies compromises the effective administration of a department?

[Sheila Fraser]

We note in the report, when we look at the critical factors for success in implementing recommendations, that one of them—I think the first one we mention, in fact—is sustained management attention; that it takes a clear commitment from senior management to work on these issues.

It's probably a personal opinion, but I would say the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs is certainly one of the most complex departments in the Government of Canada. There are 630 first nations spread across the country. The department is in fact almost like, and provides the services of many.... It's like the equivalent of a provincial government. It provides water, education, social programs, housing, economic development...the list goes on and on. It is an extraordinarily complex department. When you have senior management that is turning, I think it is a serious issue. It is no wonder, perhaps, that actions aren't sustained and that progress is difficult to achieve.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Ms. Fraser.

We're coming close to the end of our allotted time. Do you have any closing remarks you want to make, you or any of your officials?

[Sheila Fraser]

I'd just like to thank the committee for its interest in our reports, and I look forward to future hearings on the specific audits that are contained in this one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Before I close, I want to thank you, Ms. Fraser, and your officials.

Before you leave—this is for the members of the committee—we've been invited by the Auditor General and her staff for dinner at the parliamentary restaurant on Monday evening, May 29, at 6:30, so put that in your calendars. That's our first day back.

Before we adjourn, Members, there's a steering committee meeting afterwards, for Monsieur Nadeau, Mr. Christopherson, and Mr. Fitzpatrick.

The meeting is adjourned.