Evidence of meeting #42 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was spending.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Do you mean the annual cost of operating those systems?
4:10 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
The annual cost of operating those systems is about $6 million.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I understand they're not very effective. Is that correct?
4:10 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Those systems are all over 20 years old. All of their architecture, even code, is over 30 years old, so we are on the verge of seeing those systems collapse and my being unable to bring the president those blue books.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
When is the scheduled full replacement of those systems to take place?
4:15 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
We are now scheduled with the replan project to have a replacement integrated system in operation and fully tested this November. We plan to maintain the legacy systems on a parallel basis for the balance of the next estimates year, but our current plan with the blueprint that we're just approving this week, actually, is to switch over as of November for the production of the 2008-09 main estimates.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I am curious to see that the EMIS system went from $16 million to $53 million. Was that covered by supplementary estimates?
4:15 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
That would have been, depending on the timing—That is a multi-year cost estimate, not a one-year estimate; some of that cost would have been reflected in the mains, actually, this year.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
It's an interesting mechanism. We talk about supplementary estimates or using that mechanism without actually going to Parliament first. Now, 10% of total spending is supplementary estimates, but what percentage of that 10% is actually spent before it goes to Parliament for approval?
4:15 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
It is very little, in my view. I personally put in writing to departmental senior financial officers twice a year a reminder that they should not spend; they are not to spend.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
“Very little” is what, $10 million, $100 million, $1 billion?
4:15 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
We have no way to judge that. The one way in which departments could, while respecting Parliament's authority, move ahead on some initiatives is if they were working within a vote that did not name the activity. For example, for a grant and contribution, you can't come up with a new grant and contribution without coming to Parliament. No department is legally spending on a new grant and contribution that's not listed. So I believe this doesn't happen, period.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
You seem to be saying that you treat it seriously, because you send out a letter twice per year, yet we don't actually have a table or schedule that can show us who's gone ahead, what department, and for what reasons they've gone ahead in spending taxpayers' dollars without prior approval.
4:15 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think there are two pieces of evidence that you do have. One, the public accounts will show any department that spent in excess of its vote. Some years, no one will have; and if anybody has, they will be very clearly listed. The Auditor General is, of course, paying close attention to that.
The second bit of information is that in the last two fiscal years the government lapsed in excess of $5 billion of voted appropriations authority. I think that's the flip-side evidence that appropriations were sought, although in the last couple of years large amounts were sought through supplementary estimates rather late in the year, and if departments couldn't spend that money because it was too late, it was lapsed. So we have that $5 billion.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Sir, could you produce for the committee a table that would actually show——we've seen a number of tables—which departments went ahead and spent without having approval from Parliament through supplementary estimates?
4:15 p.m.
Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
To the best of my knowledge, sir, we have information on the annual use of authorities, as opposed to the daily, weekly, or monthly use of authorities.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I find it unacceptable that departments would not even be flagged. You're sending out letters twice a year saying please don't do this, but departments aren't even being flagged after the fact as having gone ahead and spent taxpayer dollars without approval of Parliament. That just leaves things wide open.
In terms of consequences, what sorts of repercussions are there when a department goes ahead and, without having parliamentary approval, begins spending above its approved budget?
4:20 p.m.
Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Again, I think it's very difficult to get that information during the fiscal year. If a department exceeds its vote at the end of the year, we would know that, but we are not in a position to be able to, of those virtually thousands of votes, determine on a given daily or weekly basis whether a department is in fact exceeding its spending. It just would not be possible for us to do that.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Mr. Wouters, would a department be aware of the fact that it had exceeded what it had been budgeted?
4:20 p.m.
Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
As we come to the end of a fiscal year, the department will know whether in fact it exceeded its overall budget, and it will also be able to track, and should be able to track during the year, where it is.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Is there any obligation on the part of the department when it appears that it's tracking towards going over budget without supplementary estimates' being approved? If you're unable to turn around and see whether or not departments are doing this, is there any obligation on their part to turn around and say they have two months to go, and it looks like they're on track to exceeding their budget, to red-flag it for themselves?
4:20 p.m.
Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
They're very much required as departments, as is the senior executive, including the deputy who's the accounting officer of the department, to ensure that they are basically within their vote. That is the responsibility of each department. It's been very rarely the case, in my experience, that any one department or any one agency has in fact exceeded its vote during the year.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
Mr. Fitzpatrick, eight minutes.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to deal with the access to information issue that was raised in your report, Madam Fraser. From what I can gather, you were having difficulties getting access to information, but you have worked out a protocol with this administration that you think allows you to do your job.