Public Accounts Committee on June 1st, 2006

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Before my time starts to run--I heard the beep there--I have a point of clarification to Mr. John Williams.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You're at zero now.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay, thank you.

As a point of clarification, Mr. Williams had a point of order that the Kelowna accord does not exist. It does occur at times that I concur with Mr. Williams. The Kelowna accord does not exist. It doesn't exist because the Conservative government ripped it up.

There was a consensus that was arrived at in Kelowna between the federal government and provincial governments and the first nations, a consensus that right in the conclusions of this Auditor General's report and in this government's response said the Kelowna accord would have led to improvements “in important areas such as housing, health, education, and economic opportunities”. In fact, those opportunities will not exist and the Kelowna accord does not exist, as Mr. Williams had stated. He was absolutely correct.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Chairman--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

He's on his own time.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Well, we have officials here. Why don't you ask questions?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

In dealing with first nations, as you go through these reports, it becomes quite apparent that we have third party management. And what does that entail? We go into the reports and we find that there are 60,000 reports from some 600 first nations per year, approximately a report from every first nation every three days. Then we find out in those same reports that most of those reports are not, in fact, being read.

When it comes to the issue of mould in housing, what are the results of all of those reports? I'm quoting: “the scale of the problem has not been identified, priorities for action have not been established, and no overall plan for co-ordinating federal organizations' efforts or monitoring overall progress has been developed”.

What have we actually achieved when it comes to mould in housing? In 2003, three years ago, we established a committee. What has that committee done, concretely? Nothing. So people are still living in this mouldy housing.

In the government response to the Auditor General's report, they state on housing, and I quote, “Moving forward will continue to require sustained management attention.” This sort of attention is that you require reports, reports that aren't read, that result in action or inaction. What it appears to be is that reports are there for one reason, to duck responsibility, just as the deputy minister appears to have ducked responsibility here today.

Mr. LeBlanc, at the beginning of the meeting, we asked that you find out whether or not the deputy minister would make himself available later on in this meeting. Your assistant left. You have a note that she brought back to you. Could you please read the contents of that note?

[Paul LeBlanc]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My colleague was able to determine a little while ago, at the committee's request, that the deputy minister has indeed been detained on an urgent matter. That matter relates to the issue in Caledonia, Ontario. He's been required, at the request of the Privy Council, to focus on that issue. I understand he'll be detained on that issue until sometime mid-evening today. He indicated that he would be most pleased and eager to join the committee immediately thereafter or in the day soonest, at the committee's convenience.

I would like to specify that it's certainly not the deputy's wish to in any way offend the committee or to set priorities. The deputy felt that it was imperative that he respond to the Privy Council and bring the attention to this very delicate and difficult matter for these next hours.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have a point of privilege.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate hearing the update. I heard on the news this morning that the judge was indeed calling all the participants into chambers, if the media reports are correct, to ask them to explain why the injunction wasn't upheld.

What I'm getting to, Mr. Chair, is that not withstanding the importance and everything else I mentioned earlier, I do accept that. I know there is an issue involving the Caledonia matter that is crucial, and it doesn't surprise me at all. In that circumstance I accept it and I extend apologies for suggesting otherwise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Flowing out of that, sir, perhaps at the end of the meeting we can discuss at what time we can have some of the questions answered. I believe I've run out of time. I heard the beep.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

No, you have another minute.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

In that case, Mr. LeBlanc, I'd like you to answer these questions. We've waited three years; we have this committee that gets reports but doesn't read a lot of reports, it appears, because reports aren't being read. I can't imagine these 60,000 reports. You must be swimming in reports. How many more years do we have to wait before we resolve this issue of mould in housing? Is there a concrete timeline?

[Paul LeBlanc]

There has been work going on, as I mentioned earlier. The department, as a baseline, provides $138 million annually under the heading for the priority of housing--

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Not in dollars--timeline. How long?

[Paul LeBlanc]

Our objective would be to eradicate mould immediately if we thought it possible, and not only in first nations; I would, as a Canadian citizen, hope it could be eradicated everywhere, because it's indeed present everywhere.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

What do you feel is possible?

[Paul LeBlanc]

I indicated earlier that we accepted the Auditor General's advice and her observation that a more strategic planning among the three departments was possible. We committed to do that. We're committing to--

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Sir, with all respect, you basically just told us, in your bureaucratic-speak, that there is--

[Paul LeBlanc]

--having that in hand by October of this year.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

--no timeline, there is no commitment, and that our first nations can expect to continue living in this mouldy housing for years to come, because you have not answered the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

That's your time, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Do you have anything to add, Mr. LeBlanc, to that comment? I'm not sure if there was a question there.

[Paul LeBlanc]

I would just simply repeat, Mr. Chairman, that this is an important matter.