Public Accounts Committee on June 1st, 2006

[Paul LeBlanc]

Similarly, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you again, and your officials, for being here.

Madam Ratansi, eight minutes.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, panel, for being here. Thank you, Madam Fraser. You must be going through this on a regular basis, 12 hours a day or 24 hours a day.

My question really is not pertaining to you, but I'll have to ask you because the deputy minister is missing.

It is unacceptable that a government invests $8.2 billion in a community, yet we do not see results. As an auditor, as a taxpayer, I think it is important for us to get some form of comfort that things are being done in the way they should be done. As parliamentarians, we sit here and get information and make decisions based on the information we are able to elicit from the deputy ministers, etc.

I have three questions, then.

With respect to the $8.2 billion that is being invested, what are the issues that face the communities that are living in remote areas and in special access zones? I understand that these are isolated communities. In some cases, 60% of first nations communities have fewer than 500 residents. In your opinion, what are some of the critical issues that are important?

Secondly, on page 169 you mention that there are conflicting roles in Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, and as well, that the federal government, provinces, and first nations are providing the same overlapping programs. How can these be made more effective?

Thirdly, why, despite all the investment that is being made, are these issues not being addressed?

Some of these are not questions that you may be able to answer. We negotiate agreements with first nations; we have negotiated the Kelowna accord, etc. Why is it that these things are not being done in a proper way?

This is a non-partisan committee, so I'm hoping Mr. Williams will keep it that way. That's my prayer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'm the one who's responsible, so if anyone gets a strap, I'll get it.

Mrs. Fraser.

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will try to give some information on some of the questions, but I think the departments might be more able to elaborate.

We all have to recognize that this is a very complex issue. The management responsibilities of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs are significant. They are complex. I know some people have referred to it as almost being the equivalent of a provincial government, in that it provides many of the same services to those communities. When we talk about the $8.2 billion, we have to recognize these are communities that are receiving funding for education, social welfare, health, housing.... The list goes on and on.

When we talk about the diversity of communities, the fact that they are spread all across the country and that most are very small—as you mentioned, the majority have fewer than 500 people—presents a particular challenge. Then, having communities as well in remote areas brings additional challenges.

That being said, it doesn't mean things can't be improved. There have been many commitments made that under treaty obligations, in response to our audits, things will be improved, that action will be taken. It is disappointing, to say the least, to see that in some cases there isn't progress being made on the very concrete problems that affect the health and wellbeing of people.

We've tried to identify what some of the critical success factors were. The chair has already mentioned sustained management attention to issues. There is also the capacity of first nations to deliver these programs. There is the existence or the lack of institutional capacity: in things such as education, our communities have school boards, but you don't have school boards; when the Commissioner of the Environment did the water audit, which is not included here, there were no standards for water on first nations reserves. There's a lack of things we would expect to exist generally in society. So there need to be efforts made as well to put those foundational pieces in place in order to be able to improve the lives of first nations people.

Perhaps there's a conflicting role, when we say the whole relationship has to be built on a relationship of trust. When you have what at a minimum can be perceived as conflicting roles—when you're delivering service, yet you're negotiating claims and are being sued—they can break or diminish the trust that exists between government and first nations. I think the departments might also want to elaborate on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Monsieur LeBlanc.

[Paul LeBlanc]

I certainly agree with the survey of challenges the Auditor General has talked about. The Auditor General has made recommendations in many of these areas. The department has accepted these recommendations. Progress has been made in many cases, but challenges remain still.

The water challenge was mentioned. The government fairly recently announced an increased strategy for water. A framework of water standards was made available to first nations in March. Yesterday the government announced, in cooperation with the Assembly of First Nations, the appointment of an expert panel to examine the water issue—particularly the gap in terms of a legislative framework covering water in first nations—as a means to fill this legislative gap and bring some greater certainty to the rights of first nations people to have safe, clean drinking water. That's another example of the forward progress.

The challenges are very considerable. They're fought on all fronts. The department, to a great extent through funding agreements, provides resources to first nations framed in fairly broad guidelines, allowing first nations to exercise the administration of programs in education, social programs, etc., the management of water plants, and so on. So there's a large role played locally by first nations. There's a role played in aggregation by tribal councils and associations of first nations in areas such as water and education.

There is not a national school board system for first nations, such as we know them in non-aboriginal society. But there are some 14 or 15 organizations across the country that provide at an aggregate level secondary-level services to first nation communities with regard to their school administration: they help provide curriculum, they help provide teacher support, and so on. We recognize that this network needs to be strengthened, and it's among the priorities of the department with respect to education.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. LeBlanc.

That concludes your eight minutes, Madam Ratansi.

We're going to move on now to Mr. Lemay. Huit minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I thank you for being here today. I believe that we have already met once, in the Indian Affairs Committee, where you made the same presentation. This leads me to my first question.

I don't want to be negative but there is an issue of duplication here. I see that you've asked the same questions to the Chair of the Indian Affairs Committee and to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Is there not some duplication there? Who should do what? In theory, these people deal with the public accounts whereas we deal with Indian affairs.

[Sheila Fraser]

I don't see any problem with both parliamentary committees dealing with the same matters in order to make the departments accountable for their lack of progress on some very important issues for First Nations. That's why we've asked the same questions.

The practice at the Public Accounts Committee is to prepare reports and to table them in the House. However, all committees do not necessarily do that. It two committees want to deal with some issues and make the department accountable, that may lead to some action.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

I have read your report with a lot of attention. The Liberals may say what they want but they were in power in 2002 and this is a situation that we've been raising since then.

Turning to page 189 of your report, at paragraph 5.37, you say that four federal organizations required at least 168 reports annually from First Nations communities -- and that many have fewer than 500 residents. On its own, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development requires more than 60 000 reports per year from more than 600 First Nations.

I wonder, Ms. Frazer, how the Public Accounts Committee could put an end to the situation. I have a very specific example. Indian Affairs Canada, Health Canada and CMHC require four audited financial reports from each First Nation, at a cost of $2 500 each, even though the topic of each report is the same. What can we do quickly to put an end to this?

[Sheila Fraser]

We quite agree that there are far too many reports. In our 2002 audit, we tried to find how those reports were being used by the department and we discovered that it made use of only a very small number of them.

At the time, the department had accepted the idea to streamline those practices, to get rid of duplication and to operate more on a risk basis. I am extremely disappointed to see, four years later, that very little progress has been made.

However, I believe that this should have been relatively easy to do. As mentioned by Mr. LeMay, there are only 600 First Nations. Why not input all the data on those First Nations in a database that could be used to for all the programs? At the time, the department said that it agreed with the recommendation, and it is saying now that it agrees. Your committee might ask the department to develop a detailed plan of action that it would review, and it could then follow up and ask for a progress report to make sure that what should be done has been done.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Who is responsible to put an end to this mould imbroglio? Who should be responsible? I am sorry to keep asking this question but it is important to me. For three years, Health Canada, CMHC and Indian Affairs have been playing ping-pong with this file. Who do you think should be responsible for dealing with the issue once and for all?

In their budget, the Conservatives announced that they wanted to put $400 million in housing. In many aboriginal communities, it would just be a matter of cleaning up the mould for the problem to be resolved.

[Sheila Fraser]

It is essential to answer this question to make progress on this file. We have not been able to identify the responsible department. It is absolutely imperative that a department accept this responsibility. Obviously, the three departments have to coordinate their action but one of them has to accept responsibility. I believe it is up to the government to decide which of those departments should be responsible.

Is there any representative of the government who would want to answer this question?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have a one minute left. We can hear Mr. LeBlanc or Mrs. Gosselin since this is a matter for both departments, especially Health Canada. I would like to hear Mrs. Gosselin who has not spoken yet.

[Hélène Gosselin]

I can start and Mr. LeBlanc can follow me.

It's true that we all have different responsibilities. We try to coordinate our actions but we have not had much success so far, according to the Auditor General. I am somewhat in agreement with her.

Health Canada doesn't have any program to renovate houses or to build new houses. Our role is to carry out inspections of houses on the reserves when we are being asked to do so -- this is generally done after we have received a request from the chief of the band council -- and to give advice on the steps to be taken when problems are discovered. However, we do not have any program allowing us to do this on our own. Our role is to give advice and support. That is how we provide help to the communities. Normally, band councils ask us to carry out inspections and then they make their own decisions. They select the solutions that they want to implement. They work with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development insofar as that department has programs to help them for housing.

Do you want to add something, Mr. LeBlanc?

[Paul LeBlanc]

Mr. Chairman, the three departments work closely together and in a coordinated manner. I don't understand why the Auditor General does not recognize this coordination that exists between the three departments. There is a need to improve some aspects of this partnership, especially relating to the strategic matters and to the inventory. The challenge is to ensure better coordination of efforts between the three departments.

As far as Indian Affairs and Northern Development is concerned, we act mainly through contributions for housing. This allows First Nations to build new housing and to carry out the necessary repairs, especially for mould.

One must not forget also that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, CMHC, provides funding in the same manner. CMHC and Indian Affairs coordinate their investments for building and repairing houses on the reserves.

Furthermore, we worked together to implement some information and training programs which are essential for occupants to play the role that belongs to them and to ensure that local leaders can make the decisions that need to be made about mould.

We take note of Ms. Fraser's recommendations, which we accept. We are committed to make more use of strategic plans starting this year in order to ensure that our efforts be more coordinated.

It would be difficult to have one responsible department only.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

Do you have something to add to that, Mrs. Fraser?

[Sheila Fraser]

I want to underline that our recommendations require more than better coordination. At present, both the departments and the Crown corporation work within the framework of their own programs but there is no strategic plan, no assessment of the problem, no plan of action. Nobody follows up to assess the extent of the problem and to decide if improvements are required or not.

Therefore, it is more than a matter of coordination and attacking the same problems. There has to be someone to consider the whole issue, to develop a strategy, a plan of action, and to measure outcomes. We believe that one department should have this responsibility.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Fraser.

Mr. Williams, eight minutes.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm just going to quote a little part from paragraph 5.37 in the Auditor General's report, where she estimated that four organizations required 168 reports annually from first nations. They found that many of the reports were unnecessary; moreover, they were not used by the federal government.

In that context, Mr. Chairman, both the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and the Department of Health didn't see fit to have an opening statement to us this morning in response to the Auditor General's report.

Mr. LeBlanc, with all this reporting that you get, why don't you report to Parliament?

[Paul LeBlanc]

Well, the department indeed reports to Parliament through its report on plans and priorities and its performance report. We have sought to improve the quality of the reports to Parliament inside the department--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. LeBlanc, you are supposed to be responding to accusations, allegations, and condemnations by the Auditor General, and you were summoned here this morning to answer to that. You didn't have an opening statement. Why not?

[Paul LeBlanc]

My understanding, Mr. Chair, was that the purpose of the committee was to hear the presentation of the Auditor General and that the department was invited in order to respond to questions. That was our understanding.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, you've been here before, and you know that's not how it works.

Madam Gosselin, you know the condemnations this committee has heard about the health of first nations, prescription drugs and so on. We've dealt with the issue many times. Why didn't you have an opening statement?