Evidence of meeting #69 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
First of all, as I said just before you adjourned the meeting--and I'm sure it's in the blues from the meeting--rather than making a decision now, because it is controversial, you should check with the Speaker, the Clerk of the House, and the law clerk and bring their opinions to bear on the issue before you rule whether or not the motion is in order. It seems to me that you haven't had time to consult with these people. Therefore, until you can, you are not in a position to make a ruling.
Number two, Mr. Chairman--and it was brought up the other day, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj--is Standing Order 18. The whole reason, of course, is because of asking the former Lieutenant Governor to explain her expenses while she was in office. Standing Order 18 says:
No Member shall speak disrespectfully of the Sovereign, nor of any of the Royal Family, nor of the Governor General or the person administering the Government of Canada....
That includes Madame Lise Thibault when she was Lieutenant Governor.
I would think that when somebody comes before this committee, quite often it's a fairly testy situation. It has been on the odd occasion, and it may be with her. I don't know, but we're certainly not going to have her treated disrespectfully.
Also, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj--and I raised this last week--the issue of a representative of the Crown appearing in the House of Commons is constitutionally barred. That issue has to be addressed, and it's been in since 1642 or 1644. My memory is a little vague, going back that far, but it's one of these two dates.
So it's a constitutional question that needs to be resolved, Mr. Chairman, and I would suggest that you rule that the matter cannot go forward until you have consulted these people.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
On a point of order, is this Standing Order 18 the one you are referencing and on which you are making your decision to defer this vote?
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
I believe it's Marleau and Montpetit, page 857, and it's the authority of the chair.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Hear me out on this, Borys. It's not really overruling the Standing Orders. The ruling just says, “In doubtful or unprovided cases, the Chair may reserve his or her decision”.
As the chair, I quite honestly don't have the jurisprudence behind this whole issue. And the law clerk, who is a very knowledgeable person, came before this committee and my recollection was that he was looking through his research and he wasn't prepared to answer that, and I don't think the law clerk even at this time is.... This is an uncharted area for our committee. It seems to me this thing is precisely on point. That was the decision we made last Thursday, and nothing has really changed.
By September, when we come back to the House, we'll have an answer to that question. And if the answer is yes, we can, then we'll have the person here.
That's my ruling.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
And I'm going to rule that it's in order and we're going to get on with the business. This matter is—
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order.
I completely disagree with what you have just said. You said you cannot make that decision, which is completely wrong. You quoted Marleau and Montpetit and the standing orders. I can quote the same references in the French version. The paragraph in chapter 20 which deals with witnesses says: “It is the responsibility of the Committee to determine which witnesses it will hear.” It is not the responsibility of the chairman to decide which witnesses the committee will hear.
If committee members disagree with the motion, they can vote against it, but it must be discussed and voted on.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Mr. Laforest, we're into debate. I've heard that argument before that the committee has the right to do it but there is this caveat, this qualification. That was raised last Thursday.
I've made my decision. I reserve the matter until I have guidance. As far as I'm concerned, that brings closure to this issue and we—
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
No decision was taken last Thursday, Mr. Chairman. The meeting ended before any decision was taken. It ended at 5:30 p.m. and we did not have time to vote on the motion and reach a decision. It is the responsibility of committee members to make the decision and not the chairman. You cannot put off deciding in this manner.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Actually, I have made that decision. We were going to move on to other business. I asked the committee for unanimous consent to carry on, and I was turned down, but I had already made that decision.
So I've made my decision, Mr. Laforest, and we're going to move on. This matter will be coming up in September, and we'll all be a lot wiser when that time comes.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Chair, there's a point of order on the floor.
No one is challenging that there is discretion when there's a departure from the Standing Orders. As you've referenced and have read to us, it's quite clear that you have that power, but it compels you to list which standing order it is.
My question to you has been, which standing order are you referencing in making your decision? Mr. Williams has said it's Standing Order18. Do you concur that it's Standing Order 18?
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Well, I can just reference where Marleau and Montpetit. This is a reference to decisions that have been made by the House as binding on the House of Commons. In referencing this, I am saying there were proceedings and debate on this and that this is a precedent of the House. I don't have the exact reference before me right now, but I can certainly make it known to you.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Sure, but in making the decision, you have to.... You've read parts of that text to us several times, but if you had read that text in full, it says that in cases of departure from the Standing Orders....
So I ask the question, under which specific standing order is it? It compels you to state which standing order it is. Mr. Williams has been very helpful in saying he believes you're referencing Standing Order 18, but we have not heard this from the chair, and it's the chair, not Mr. Williams, who makes this decision.
We'd like to hear from you whether or not you're referencing Standing Order 18 in making your decision.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Borys, it's not just the Standing Orders. If a committee or the House has made a ruling about what the discretion of the chair is in these situations, that may not necessarily be a standing order; but it's a ruling that the committee and House have decided on, and it becomes a precedent or a following of the House. It doesn't necessarily make it a standing order. That's the custom and the practice of the House of Commons, and I'm following it.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Mr. Chairman, I asked to speak a little earlier.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
I'm going to hit the gavel here and move on to the next item on the agenda. I think we've hashed this out enough, folks. You can bring it back in September.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Chairman, you cannot unilaterally decide to end debate on a motion, because that is the decision of the committee. In fact, I told you that a little earlier. The standing orders are very clear in this regard. Marleau and Montpetit state: “The chair also puts the question on all motions before the committee and announces the results of any vote.”
If you decide to end the debate—
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
4:40 p.m.
Conservative