Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 6th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'd like to call the meeting to order. Welcome, everyone. Bienvenue à tous. I do hope everyone had a good summer. We're back on duty here.

First of all, I want to point out that we have two full days of hearings on this matter, and that is the study of the RCMP report, the Report of the Independent Investigator into Matters Relating to RCMP Pension and Insurance Plans, pursuant to the Auditor General's report of November 2006.

This morning, colleagues, we have the first panel, which is from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. We're pleased to have with us Assistant Commissioner Sandra Conlin, who is presently the ethics advisor. We also have back with us Mr. John Spice, retired assistant commissioner, who was the previous ethics advisor.

Welcome back, Mr. Spice and Ms. Conlin.

I understand Mr. Sweet has a motion before we proceed. Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to move a motion, and I seek unanimous consent from the committee for this motion: That the Standing Committee on Public Accounts of the first session of the 39th Parliament do commend, in alphabetical order, Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell, Staff Sergeant Ron Lewis, Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay, Ms. Denise Revine, Assistant Commissioner Bruce Rogerson, and Staff Sergeant Steve Walker for their continued efforts to expose the mismanagement of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension and insurance plan administration in the face of great personal and professional hardship, for their unwavering commitment to justice and accountability, for their dedication to ensure the Royal Canadian Mounted Police remain a cherished national symbol with the full confidence of both its members and the Canadian public, and for their embodiment of the core values of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police: integrity, honesty, professionalism, compassion, respect, and accountability.

I would also move that this motion, Mr. Chair, be reported to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sweet.

As everyone knows, to go anywhere at this point in time, that motion would need the unanimous consent of members at this meeting. Does Mr. Sweet have unanimous consent to proceed with the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Sweet, is there anything further you want to say on the motion?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

No, that's fine, Mr. Chair. I'll present it to the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Does anybody else want to speak on the motion?

Perhaps if I may say so, Mr. Sweet, I certainly think it is an appropriate motion for this committee. I do hope the committee passes it. It's been a long, difficult road for each one of the individuals you did mention.

Perhaps I should add that there have been others who haven't been mentioned, who were involved in this investigation also, who took a stand when perhaps it wasn't the popular or the expedient thing to do. They took a stand, and it was the right thing to do. Looking back, I think they all should be very proud of the actions that they did take. I don't vote on the motion, but I certainly think it is appropriate.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I would like to say a few words to the motion as well.

I would like to begin by thanking Mr. Sweet for bringing this motion forward. It's an acknowledgement that's been due for quite a while. I'm sure it will help in providing us with a perspective as we go forward. The sessions through the winter and the spring were at times difficult. It was difficult to bring those very people before this committee as witnesses. I'm glad this acknowledgement has been made that in fact it was appropriate not only to bring these witnesses forward but also to acknowledge the personal difficulties they've experienced within the RCMP. It wasn't easy to bring them here, and it wasn't easy for them to testify before this committee.

The Liberal members wholeheartedly support Mr. Sweet's motion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

If there are no further comments, I will put the motion to a vote.

Mr. Laforest.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Could you read the motion again, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Laforest.

Mr. Sweet said:

Mr. Chairman, I would like to move a motion, and I seek unanimous consent from the committee for this motion:

That the Standing Committee on Public Accounts of the first session of the 39th Parliament do commend, in alphabetical order, Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell, Staff Sergeant Ron Lewis, Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay, Ms. Denise Revine, Assistant Commissioner Bruce Rogerson, and Staff Sergeant Steve Walker for their continued efforts to expose the mismanagement of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension and insurance plan administration in the face of great personal and professional hardship, for their unwavering commitment to justice and accountability, for their dedication to ensure the Royal Canadian Mounted Police remain a cherished national symbol with the full confidence of both its members and the Canadian public, and for their embodiment of the core values of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police: integrity, honesty, professionalism, compassion, respect, and accountability.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

The motion was carried unanimously. Thank you very much. According to the wording of the motion, that motion will be reported to the House.

We're going to go back to the orders of the day. We have with us Sandra Conlin and John Spice.

I'm going to go to you, Ms. Conlin. Go ahead, the floor is yours.

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin, Assistant Commissioner, Ethics Advisor, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Mr. Chairman, thank you for inviting me here today to assist the committee in its ongoing work related to the RCMP pension and insurance plans.

I would like to give the members of the committee a very brief overview of my previous professional involvement and of my present role as RCMP Ethics Advisor. I served as a regular member of the RCMP for 31 years. In March 2007, I was appointed to my present position of Ethics Advisor by former commissioner Beverley Busson.

Before that, from 2001 to 2007, I was Director General of Criminal Intelligence Services Canada at RCMP Headquarters. In the course of my career, I have held several operational positions in Ontario and Quebec. Most of my work has been in the RCMP's A, C and O Divisions.

The mandate of the RCMP's Office of the Ethics Advisor is to ensure our organization's shared mission, visions and values become ingrained in the day-to-day activities of all employees. In light of a number of recent internal and external factors, the responsibilities of this office have been expanded, and I expect they will continue to evolve.

Since I assumed my role as ethics advisor five months ago, one of my first priorities has been to build capacity in the Office of the Ethics Advisor in order to deliver on policy and programs that help drive a climate of meaningful accountability, control, values, and ethics. This work has been started, and it is ongoing.

Another priority of the Office of the Ethics Advisor has been to study and understand how ethics and compliance issues fit into the RCMP's overall strategic direction. This is an important step in creating appropriate mechanisms and structures that will contribute to an ethical environment and instill value-based behaviour across the RCMP over the long term.

My office is also responsible for overseeing RCMP compliance with, and obligations under, the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, which went into effect in 2007.

We are working hard to remove any obstacle that would dissuade or prevent RCMP employees from coming forward if they have reason to believe that serious wrongdoings have been committed. Our goal is to put in place policies, and training and communication strategies in order to foster an environment in which employees may honestly and openly raise concerns without fear or threat of reprisal.

I wish to inform this committee that the Office of the Ethics Advisor has the full support of Commissioner Elliott and the RCMP senior executive committee. The commissioner's expectations are that my office will lead efforts to strengthen the climate for ethics and integrity at all levels of the RCMP.

I would also like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the ongoing work of the task force chaired by Mr. Brown. Members of the task force can expect my assistance when and where it is needed. I am looking forward to the task force's final recommendations and reports being published, as they will no doubt touch on the work of my office.

In conclusion, I can tell you that the RCMP is fully committed to providing its employees with the leadership, the tools, and the work environment they need in order to perform their duties in accordance with the highest ethical standards.

I am now happy to answer any of your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Assistant Commissioner Conlin.

Do you have anything to add, Mr. Spice? You were here before, I believe. Do you have any opening comments that you want to make?

[John Spice, Assistant Commissioner (Retired), Ethics Advisor, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Nothing at all, Mr. Chair. I'm just happy to be here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We're pleased to have you.

We're going to go to the first round of eight minutes. Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, Mr. Spice, and welcome, Ms. Conlin.

On April 16, when former Commissioner Zaccardelli appeared before this committee, I asked him whether or not he had indicated to Mr. Ron Lewis that he would like to have a criminal investigation begun. He responded, “I never ordered a criminal investigation”.

As well, Mr. Christopherson put a similar question to the former commissioner. Mr. Christopherson said, “At that meeting, did you give directions to Mr. Lewis to initiate correspondence that would have the effect of starting a criminal investigation? Yes or no.”

Former Commissioner Zaccardelli, who was under oath before the committee at that time, responded forcefully and clearly by stating, “absolutely not”.

Former Assistant Commissioner Spice, do you have any information that contradicts Mr. Zaccardelli's statement?

[John Spice]

I've had a conversation with a serving member of the force who said that this conversation did take place. When I spoke with him last night, he told me it was hearsay. I believe it would be prudent to contact the former criminal operations officer of A Division, Chief Superintendent Wayne Watson, to make a determination as to any communication that he had with former Commissioner Zaccardelli and/or retired Staff Sergeant Lewis.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Spice, this conversation was with whom specifically?

[John Spice]

I had a conversation with Superintendent Denis Constant. He was a superintendent at the time. He no longer is.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Prior to the November 2003 audit findings, in September you received an e-mail, signed by Denise Revine and sent by Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay, with all of Ms. Revine's serious allegations. Once you had had a chance to read through that letter, did you believe that a criminal investigation might be warranted?

[John Spice]

I don't know that I formed an opinion that a criminal investigation was warranted. I certainly believed there should have been an audit conducted to make a determination. In fact, I had a conversation with the director of audit, Mr. Brian Aiken, regarding that. We went over the fact that should he find anything criminal while doing the audit, he would then suspend the audit and call for a criminal investigation, which was the process at the time.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So you spoke with the auditor, Mr. Aiken. Did you speak with former Commissioner Zaccardelli as well, after receiving this e-mail?

[John Spice]

Yes, I did.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

And what was Mr. Zaccardelli's response?