Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 6th, 2007

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, I asked what's your opinion.

[Catherine Ebbs]

What's my opinion? I can only speak to the system that we have. The system is designed to provide the external review at the last stages of the process, at the appeal stages.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I know. I understand all that.

In hindsight, we know that Staff Sergeant Frizzell, Chief Superintendent Macaulay, and Assistant Commissioner Rogerson were really not treated as well as they should be. If they had come knocking on your door, you would have told them go away, right?

[Catherine Ebbs]

There's an internal process that they would have to go through before it would come to the committee.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But you said here that the cases must be referred to you by the RCMP commissioner.

[Catherine Ebbs]

That's right. For example, if I talk about discipline, if I could just explain—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, I want to know about Assistant Commissioner Rogerson, Chief Superintendent Macaulay, and Staff Sergeant Frizzell. If they had come to you and said, “I have a problem”, would you have listened to them? Or would you have said, “I can't talk to you”?

[Catherine Ebbs]

We're a labour relations tribunal.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, I said, would you have listened to them?

[Catherine Ebbs]

No, we can't initiate investigations on our own. We only have review of labour relations matters within the RCMP.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay, that's fine. I asked you a simple question: would you have listened to their complaint, or would you have said you could only listen to complaints from the commissioner?

[Catherine Ebbs]

It's not accurate, Mr. Chair, to say that we receive complaints from the commissioner. We don't receive complaints from the commissioner either.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay. Can you only get cases that are referred to you by the commissioner?

[Catherine Ebbs]

Because the law sets out the labour relations cases. It's hard to explain, because we're talking only about the labour relations environment.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I understand perfectly well, Ms. Ebbs. I'm not worried about the labour relations environment.

[Catherine Ebbs]

Grievances and discipline matters.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm concerned about your committee and its independence.

We have an issue where Assistant Commissioner Rogerson was basically sat down to report to a sergeant because he wanted to blow the whistle on ethics. We had Chief Superintendent Macaulay, who was left on an island by himself because he wanted to blow the whistle. We had Staff Sergeant Frizzell, who was pulled off a case unceremoniously and dumped. These three people had serious issues with the commissioner, and yet you're telling us in your opening statement that if the commissioner doesn't ask you to get involved, you cannot get involved. Am I correct in saying that?

[Catherine Ebbs]

Those are not issues that are labour relations grievances or discipline. So there isn't anything that the committee has in its mandate. There are other processes. In the labour relations environment, grievances and discipline are not the only systems in place to take care of—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So if it's not a matter of salary and benefits, nobody can come to you.

[Catherine Ebbs]

Salary and benefits?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Labour relations. What are labour relations? If the commissioner demotes an assistant commissioner with what appears to us to be a vindictive act, and sends him off to the doghouse because he doesn't like what he is saying, that, to me, is a labour relations issue, and I can't understand why you wouldn't deal with that as a labour relations issue.

But you still have not answered the question. Can these three individuals I mentioned come to you and get redress, or if the commissioner doesn't send it to you directly, you can't deal with it? I want a clear answer to this question. If the commissioner doesn't send it to you, you can't deal with it. Am I correct?

[Catherine Ebbs]

Yes.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you. That was difficult.

[Catherine Ebbs]

But if I could explain, Mr. Chair—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, I just needed the “yes”.