Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 6th, 2007

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How are you going to do that?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

Ethics education is one, and holding managers accountable through performance agreements is another. If I am a manager and one of my people is not behaving or is allowing issues to happen, I have to step up to the plate and hold the person accountable.

I can't do all of this, sir. As I said before, this is not just my sole responsibility. I need to get the wheels in motion to ensure that this whole ethical piece is part of everybody's daily way of doing business. It's not going to change overnight. This is going to take a multi-year plan. It's going to take quite a few years to get an organization's culture changed, but at the end of the day we have to make a start, and we're prepared to start now. That is why we're looking at alternative models. There are no holds barred right now. We're looking at a different way of delivering the service to ensure that the front line meets the needs.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Spice, it looks as if you have some thoughts on your mind on this.

I appreciate your comments, but I have to tell you I'm still not really hearing what I had hoped, namely that at this stage of the process there would be a little more traction around these things as opposed to just flowery language. I mean, we can do that. We're looking for real change.

Mr. Spice.

[John Spice]

Take, for example, the manager or the detachment commander who observes bad behaviour. If he or she does nothing to curb that behaviour, then we will continue to have the behavioural problems that can exist in an organization.

I've often said that when we hold people accountable--i.e., leave a couple swinging in the trees as you leave town--that message gets out there. I don't know that we can legislate or cause people to change their views, but we can certainly expect that they change their behaviour, whether it's in Nipawin, Saskatchewan, or Flin Flon, Manitoba, or Tuktoyaktuk. The behaviour of RCMP personnel, public servants, civilian members, and regular members has to be congruent with the values of the organization. We have to hold people accountable, and people have to see people being held accountable. And it has to be appropriate accountability, because if it isn't, they'll continue to behave badly. That's the bottom line.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It would help if they saw the ethics at the top too. We can deal with the local managers, but if they look up and don't see ethical behaviour, it's not going to be there on the front line, and that's where it has to be.

[John Spice]

Absolutely. And they'll model the behaviour that they see at the top.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Exactly.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

Thank you, retired Assistant Commissioner Spice.

Mr. McGuinty, four minutes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for coming today.

I'd like to really home in on what I describe as the most shocking part of this report.

Mr. Brown has concluded that we cannot have faith in the Ottawa Police Service investigation. He declares and states very clearly on pages 20 through 22 that Commissioner Zaccardelli was forced to go ahead with respect to a criminal investigation. Then we find out, as you know, in the testimony that was given in May, that the OPS investigation, according to Mr. Brown, was not independent. We find out it was staffed almost entirely by members of the RCMP. The RCMP provided the office space for the investigation in one of its own buildings, hardly the appearance of transparency and objectivity and arm's length. Third, the A Division file number for the project was the same number used for the original investigative file to open as a result of Staff Sergeant Lewis' complaint, and it goes on and on from there. It reminds me of, just to paraphrase a Shakespearian quote, peace officer, investigate thyself.

What is going on with the OPP investigation now? Is there an investigation pursuant to this report? Has your office, Ms. Conlin, been involved in any way in this investigation?

What is your view, Mr. Spice, given now that you have all this retrospective opportunity to look back? Should Canadians be as concerned as Mr. Brown is about the criminality of what may or may not have gone on inside the RCMP?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

First of all, to answer your first question, our office is not involved in any of this. Secondly, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on any ongoing investigation.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Is there an investigation?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

I believe Mr. Brown has asked that the RCMP contact the OPP. I believe that has happened, but it is not in my area of expertise, so therefore I'm not sure whether it has happened. You should perhaps direct that question tomorrow to Commissioner Elliott, sir.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So as the ethics advisor you have no knowledge of a potential or ongoing investigation right now by the OPP?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

No, I'm not aware, sir.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Would you normally be advised of such an investigation?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

No, I wouldn't, sir.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Would you normally be consulted in such an investigation?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

No, I wouldn't, sir.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Why not?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

Really, it's not my.... My role is an advisory role. Once an investigation is ongoing, our office is not involved in the investigation at all.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Spice?

[John Spice]

Is your question whether they should be advised, in the ethics office, that there is an ongoing investigation?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

No, my question is, do you agree with the conclusion of Mr. Brown that the OPS investigation was not independent?

[John Spice]

Not having read the report, and not being part of that investigation—it occurred after I had left the organization—but from speaking to individuals who were involved in it.... There are differing views, quite frankly.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

What's your view?