Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 7th, 2007

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you very much.

I must say that when I indicated I was struck by the positive response I have received, that applies not only to members serving in detachments in other places across the country, but also to the senior executive.

There have been a number of changes to the senior executive in the last while under Commissioner Busson's tenure and subsequently. We've just appointed a new acting chief human resources officer, Assistant Commissioner Clark. I guess you could categorize a number of the issues we need to address as human resource issues. I have brought in a very well-respected senior deputy commissioner from the northwest division, Deputy Commissioner Bill Sweeney. He is certainly a very good addition to the headquarters team. We have an acting chief financial officer. We'll have to take steps in the near future to fill that position.

So there are a number of changes. I would certainly say that the senior executive and the senior management team of the department, which includes the commanding officers across the country, have very much embraced the task force and the work we are doing to identify positive changes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Of course, you do know that the proof's going to be in the pudding. It's going to be what happens after this report, whether it's fulsome enough, and then going about implementing it.

But again, I would strongly urge you to recognize that from our viewpoint literally all of the uniformed, on-the-street, front-line officers are looking to you for the change that will be brought not only by you as the commissioner, but by those senior ranks. Every time I talked to front-line officers, that was the most disappointing thing. It wasn't necessarily that there was human frailty--these things happen--but that there was so much of it in the very senior ranks. It's demoralizing, because if the top doesn't believe, why the heck should anybody on the street believe? They're the ones out there putting their lives on the line. So that is really critical.

I have so many questions.

Professor, I want to ask you two quick things. I'm curious. I went through your report and happened to notice--and I'm sure there's a logical reason, it just sticks in my craw, and I can't figure out what it is--pages 8 and 9 of the report that was circulated talk about male employees specifically. I couldn't find where there was a separation between females and males. All of a sudden there were these two comments about male officers, and I wondered why they were about males specifically.

[Prof. Linda Duxbury]

When we did the report, we wanted to look at the impact of rank and the impact of gender. So there is a bunch of stuff on females in there. But the interesting thing is that we could only get a sufficient sample to look at females in the two lowest ranks of constable and corporal. There were not enough females above those ranks to give us a sufficient sample size to make sure it was statistically accurate and that we could promise confidentiality.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That tells us something.

[Prof. Linda Duxbury]

Yes, it does, actually.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The other question I wanted to ask you is this. Notwithstanding the exceptional individual beside you--

[Prof. Linda Duxbury]

There were some very senior people, but there is a shortage of women above the constable and corporal ranks. There's no doubt about that.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Let me just take that a step further. Is recruitment a problem in that area? I'll ask everybody. Are we having problems attracting people other than white men?

[Beverley A. Busson]

From my perspective--and of course I haven't done the scientific study around it--once females get to the corporal level they also start making some different choices with regard to family issues and those kinds of things, so it's a very complicated issue. I think that over the years the organization has been trying to build in more infrastructure to make it work for females, but it's still an issue--the family issue.

[Prof. Linda Duxbury]

They leave after reaching the constable and corporal levels. They're coming in but they're not staying, and it goes back to this culture of work or family.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

We'll follow up on that later. Thank you very much.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Christopherson.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, seven minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Elliott, as the deputy minister to public safety minister Stockwell Day, did you advise the minister on his dealings with former Commissioner Zaccardelli and the RCMP?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

It's not proper to ask a question about any confidential advice given to a minister.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'm not asking for the actual advice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Elliott knows that.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I should clarify. I hate to be bureaucratic on you, but I was in fact the associate deputy minister, not the deputy minister. And I did deal with former Commissioner Zaccardelli, including in the context of his dealings with the minister.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In the July 9 issue of the Globe and Mail, Mr. Day is quoted as saying, in terms of his relationship with you:

There were a number of times...where he would be the first to say, when it came to the terms of the RCMP, “No, a minister cannot go there, a minister cannot say this, a minister...cannot tread on this particular ground because of the independence of the RCMP,”

It almost sounds as if you really had your hands full.

We also know that the minister likes sending out communiqués. I saw a communiqué in which he referenced a cheesecake that he enjoyed in Newfoundland. It almost sounds as if he'd like to be the commissioner.

How often did you have to stop the minister from politically interfering in the operation? I don't want to know the details, as was pointed out by the chair, but I'd like to know how often. It sounds as if you've had to take on that role over and over.

[Commr William Elliott]

I will say the following. Mr. Day is certainly very respectful of the independent role of the police. In very many cases it is quite clear where that role begins and ends, and in other cases it is less clear. I am not in a position to talk about the specifics of situations or the number of situations in which those issues arose, but I would say that Mr. Day and the other ministers I have dealt with in the past, of various governments, in the role of Solicitor General or Minister of Public Safety, were very respectful of the independent role of the force.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You were also an adviser to Prime Minister Harper and the PCO on security issues. Did you, at times, discuss the issues of the difficulties under Commissioner Zaccardelli or the difficulties of the culture? Once again, we don't want details. But were there discussions with the Prime Minister about the difficulties in the RCMP?

[Commr William Elliott]

Certainly there were discussions about issues relating to the RCMP while I was national security adviser both to Prime Minister Martin and then subsequently to Prime Minister Harper. The O'Connor inquiry was going on. I don't recall the matters that the committee is seized with today being the subject of discussions.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

In your previous roles, your instincts have been...and your job entailed protecting the minister or ministers and the Prime Minister. These days it's quite different; it's to protect the RCMP from interference by the minister, Stockwell Day. In fact, as I said, in his quote he has a tendency to overstep his bounds. You were a key adviser to the Prime Minister. Are you up to the role now, instead of protecting the minister and the Prime Minister, to protect the RCMP from their interference?

[Commr William Elliott]

I'm reminded of an interesting exchange I had with a former minister of the Crown in Mr. Chrétien's government, in which I indicated that my role was not to protect the minister but to protect the Canadian public. I think my job as a bureaucrat is to provide frank advice to the ministers and the government that I serve, and I try to do that to the best of my ability.

Am I up to the task of being commissioner? Well, I guess I would respond in two ways. First of all, I would echo Mr. Christopherson's comment, that time will tell. It is certainly a very, very daunting and challenging task. All I can say is that I will do my best.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

On a point of order, Mr. Fitzpatrick.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I simply want the record to be clear on this point.

I heard the evidence given here today in which it was said that Mr. Day was very respectful of the independence of the RCMP. The whole premise of this continued line of questioning is that there is some sort of evidence here that would indicate otherwise.