Public Accounts Committee on June 13th, 2006

[Michael Wernick]

The issue of paper-shuffling was raised by Mr. Fitzpatrick. There are issues about how we do business that actually affect our ability to achieve our objectives. Some sustained attention to information tools, financial systems, the kinds of reporting burdens, and whether the energy is spent meeting requirements of agreements or doing something in the community—these make a difference over time to the accountability.

I work within the legislation and the funds Parliament provides me. I accept my responsibilities as deputy minister in terms of leadership of the executive part of the department. I'm hoping Parliament and the government will, over the next few years, renovate those tools, because frankly, trying to do what we need to do with the legislation and the tools we have now isn't exactly mission impossible, but it's a very difficult one.

The most important observation the Auditor General made was to renovate the underlying legislative basis for what we're doing.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you.

Next is Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, for five minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Williams raised a point of order on the Kelowna accord, and after the discussions he provided some reference by saying he was having some fun.

Fun and games aside, Mr. Wernick---

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I never have fun in this game, Mr. Chair.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

My point of order is that when we refer to the Kelowna accord, and the line of questioning is going to be referenced to that Kelowna accord, I'd like to have that document before me so that I can appreciate this member's line of questioning.

Without that document, this is like sitting in a vacuum. He keeps referring to that document, and I'd like to have the document. It seems to me that it's just simple courtesy to the other people on the committee for them to have this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, do you have any documents that you're able to table at this point?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

No, but I am quite sure that the research staff would be able to go through the transcripts and table those documents.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Williams, on a point of order.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I never have fun at this game, because I take everything very seriously, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You're not supposed to have fun in public accounts.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, continue.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Putting that aside, obviously the Kelowna accord was very serious. Whether we call it an accord or an agreement, Kelowna was a historic coming together of first nations, provincial governments, territorial governments, and the federal government. Perhaps what we should call it is a historic opportunity that's been lost.

In terms of having fun, at that last meeting there was a reference by Mr. Fitzpatrick, which has now been explained, about Marxist paradise. At that time, we assumed it was a reference to reserves and the situation there, but it was a reference to the government. It was in several newspapers. He said, “I'm frustrated that the government is not doing a better job of improving their lives”. It's a rare occurrence, but I concur. This government is not doing enough, whether it's tearing up the Kelowna accord or agreement, however we'd like to call it.

It was very encouraging that you said that if the opportunity availed itself, you'd like to spend the rest of your career in this particular department.

Three years ago, there was a committee struck to deal with mould in housing. We had report after report. Earlier you said that within months you'd like to come back before the committee. Looking at our timelines, that opportunity would most likely rise in October.

Will you have an action plan dealing with this particular problem at that time? Will you be able to present us with very concrete timelines on how we'll finally deal with the problem of mould in the housing on the reserves?

[Michael Wernick]

I'll take the last question. I'd be pleased to come back in the fall with a report on the progress taken to date and an action plan going forward.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you. That's very encouraging.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Mr. Williams, five minutes.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a couple of points. One is that the new Federal Accountability Act states that you're accountable before Parliament. We understand there are situations where sometimes issues like Caledonia would take you away from coming here. But I would have thought that your officials would have been able to explain your absence when they were here last week, rather than saying, well, we think he's somewhere else. Take that as a note of caution, Mr. Wernick. The new Accountability Act requires you to be before Parliament.

One issue I want to talk about concerned the Auditor General pointing out that there are about 164 reports that you require from reserves and first nations, and many of them you don't even read. Yet when we ask for reports from your department before this committee, we don't get them, and your officials show up without even an opening statement.

Don't you think it's a bit of a double standard and unacceptable on both accounts that you ask for reports you don't read, then show up here without reports and don't respond to requests by this committee?

[Michael Wernick]

I'm not aware of any specific deficiency. If there's a report you've asked for, I'd be happy to take requests from the clerk of the committee and fulfill them as quickly as possible.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay.

I'm going to go back several years. We had your department before this committee dealing with the financial transfer arrangements, the FTAs, which are the umbrella documents governing the Government of Canada's relationship for the funding of first nations. Because of the Montana Band agreement, or the Montana case, which stated there was a comingling of funds, the financial statements and so on could not be made public. I asked the assistant deputy minister at that time about why we don't write into the financial transfer arrangements that there be no comingling of funds. The answer was a shrug and, well, perhaps we could look at that.

Will you ensure that the financial transfer arrangements include no comingling of funds to ensure that we can get public access to the financial records of first nations?

[Michael Wernick]

I'm not able to make that undertaking. I can undertake finding out what the issue is and give you a better response.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay. Perhaps you can write us a letter on the financial transfer arrangements and the Montana decision regarding the comingling of funds.

[Michael Wernick]

Okay. I'd be pleased to report back.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

The issue of water quality on the first nations reserve in Kashechewan and James Bay last year was a big item on the news. As far as I'm aware, it turned out that the water treatment plant was broken and nobody had bothered to fix it.

Don't you think it's time that if the first nations want to be government, we should expect them to act like government, and they should be open, transparent, and accountable?

[Michael Wernick]

Essentially those are some of the principles that the Auditor General enumerated. It means having capacity within those governments to exercise their functions, which are a combination of municipal- and provincial-like responsibilities.

Absolutely, we should be helping them to get the capacity to be accountable to their own citizens for results and to Parliament for the funds that are transferred.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm glad that you say accountable to the Parliament. When can we expect to see financial statements, auditor's reports, and so on coming before these committees?

[Michael Wernick]

If you have specific requests, I'd be pleased to try to fulfill them.