Evidence of meeting #9 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was issues.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Okay.
As far as I'm aware, Mr. Chairman, we cannot get these financial statements. So why don't we get the financial statements and the auditor's report of the 10 largest reserves that received the largest contributions by the Government of Canada. Let's start there. Can we get these delivered to Parliament?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I will look into your request, Mr. Williams.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Okay.
Getting back to this issue of the management of the responsibilities delegated to them, such as health, welfare, and management of the water treatment plants, why do you not supervise the management of these issues, as the government does in other areas, so that they are recognized and dealt with before they become a crisis?
I understand that the water quality on that particular reserve was reasonably well known to be deficient and ignored, and nothing happened until it became a public relations nightmare. Why aren't you supervising these things along the way?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I think there are attempts to supervise what moneys are used for and what the objectives of transfers are. This is a balance between the autonomy of the aboriginal governments—the first nations governments for the most part—for their own activities.... We work through contribution agreements, by and large, and we try to get reporting for what the money is used for. Hence, the web of reporting, which is in itself a problem.
On supervision, it's a matter of degree in terms of seeking assurances that certain things are done. There's a very substantial remedial plan in place on water to ensure that inspections take place, capacity is there, and there isn't a regulatory gap, which is often a problem. The laws of general application stop at the border of the first nations community.
I don't know why it wasn't done earlier, but there is work under way on water.
Building capacity for those governments to exercise government-like functions is part of the way forward. It was a problem for the Government of Ontario to know what was going on in Walkerton, or for the Government of Saskatchewan to deal with Prince Albert. Authorities are delegated down to lower levels of government. They have accountabilities to their own electors for what they do. What we have to do is a kind of oversight to try to make sure the systems are in place. But we cannot micromanage more than 600 communities on everything they do with every dollar. That's not the whole point. The point is for those communities to maximize control over their own socio-economic destinies.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I want to make a comment, Mr. Chairman.
In Walkerton people went to jail, and in Kashechewan nobody was even held accountable.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.
I just have one point that was raised by other speakers, Mr. Wernick.
I echo the sentiments of Mr. Fitzpatrick. We wish you well in this portfolio. It is a difficult and complex department, probably the most complex in the Government of Canada, and I want to wish you well.
Many of my colleagues here in this committee have raised the issue of sustained management attention. I think you're the sixth deputy in eight years there. You're saying you're committed to the cause, and you're prepared to spend the time in this department to see certain initiatives followed through and completed. Those were the exact words Mr. Horgan told the committee about a year ago. He said the same words: he was committed.
This is a recommendation that came from this committee, and it came from the Gomery commission. Governments don't seem to pay any attention to it at all, and all of a sudden.... It would certainly take six or nine months to know the intricacies of this department, and Mr. Horgan got to know it—I assume he got to know it—and bingo, he's gone. We've never received any explanation.
In the cadre of deputies you belong to, and the meetings you have, is this issue ever discussed? This committee, and I believe other parliamentarians and other people, view this as a very serious deficiency. Imperial Oil couldn't operate this way. The Royal Bank can't operate this way. Why do people in Ottawa think the Department of Indians Affairs and Northern Development can operate with a new deputy every 18 months?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I'm not the right person to ask the question to. The appointment system is an executive function the Prime Minister and the Clerk of the Privy Council exercise. These are Governor in Council appointments, and the usual explanation of why somebody is moved is to ask why the vacancy was created in the first place. There is a domino effect, such that people get assigned to other jobs because there is a vacancy to be filled. There is a relatively small pool of people who are ready to be deputy ministers of departments, and they get moved around to other assignments.
It's beyond my control how those things happen. I'd be happy to work in a different kind of system. I work in the system I'm given. You'll just have to accept my good faith to do what I can during the time I'm responsible for the department.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Pardon?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
If you get a call in 18 months from the clerk, will you resist the transfer?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's between me and the clerk. I can tell you that in the past, I've been offered assignments and have turned down assignments—more than once, actually—in order to finish what I was doing. That has happened in my career in the past. But it is sometimes beyond your own individual control.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Mr. Wernick, I want to thank you. Do you have any closing comments you want to make to the committee? I really want to thank you for your appearance here today.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
My only closing comment would be to echo what I said at the beginning and what members have said. I think this is a very tough piece of public policy and public administration. There is a lot of policy work to be done. The aboriginal affairs committee will probably carry a fair bit of the lifting on it.
I think we need new laws and new tools to really accomplish what Canadians expect of us. But there are important issues that this committee is preoccupied with, in terms of accountability for results and the way public funds are expended. We are not where we want to be. I think there are gaps and deficiencies in how we do business and the results we've achieved.
I look forward to a constructive partnership with the committee in the months ahead and to coming back as your guest as often as you think is appropriate to try to help you with your work.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Again, I want to thank you very much for your appearance.
Members, we'll break for, let's say, two minutes. We're going to resume in an in camera meeting to talk about the first of three reports we're going to be talking about today.
[Proceedings continue in camera]