Public Accounts Committee on Jan. 31st, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lake.

I have a couple of questions before I ask for concluding remarks.

First of all, in her opening comments the Auditor General stated that National Defence had agreed with the recommendations and has developed an action plan to address the concerns raised in this report. Can you file with the committee a copy of this action plan?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Yes. We brought it with us, and we'd be more than happy, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

If you could do that, we'd appreciate it very much.

To close, I have a general question to Brigadier Generall Jaeger, as the surgeon general for the Canadian armed forces.

I think we've had a very good discussion this afternoon. There have been a number of concerns raised in the auditor's report, and there were a number of concerns raised this afternoon.

One of the concerns relates to the lack of data and empirical evidence on health issues in the Canadian Forces. Speaking as a member of Parliament who deals with some of these families on a day-to-day basis, and in speaking with other members of Parliament and reading some of the reports in the media, there is a certain level of disappointment out there.

I know you're always going to get certain cases. In my district we have the head office of the Department of Veterans Affairs, so I'm aware of those situations too. My view is that they do tremendous work. There are always going to be certain issues.

But dealing specifically with the defence issues, there is a certain level of disappointment, from more than a small number of families. I can appreciate the horrendous challenges you face as the surgeon general. You're dealing with issues. We have ramped up our combat mission in the last five or six years. You're dealing with a cohort in society that's more demanding, less deferential. I don't say that in a derogatory sense. I am comparing them perhaps to the World War I and World War II veterans. You're also dealing with a health care professional environment that's brutal. You're competing with every province and country in the world. You're trying to get people to work for you, and if you are successful, then you try to deploy them to Gagetown or Petawawa, which may not meet their personal lifestyle or desires. I can appreciate the problems you're faced with.

My general question to you, as surgeon general for the forces, is whether you think you have the resources to do the job. Looking one to three years down the road, do you think you're going to be able to accomplish what everyone here and everyone across Canada wants your department to do?

[BGen Hilary Jaeger]

Thanks for that question, Mr. Chairman. It's a deceptively complex question, which was phrased relatively elegantly.

With regard to the answer, I see in my leadership and in the commitment of the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence probably more willingness to commit the necessary resources to do what needs to be done than I've seen throughout the rest of my career. That does not mean that right now I have everything I could possibly want to provide outstanding service. I think I have everything I need to provide a very solid baseline of service.

Now, should some things change in the future, for example should the definition of who is entitled to care change--and right now, families and part-time reservists are not defined as being entitled to care--then I will not have the resources I need to provide the adequate level of support. Changes in those definitions would be huge drivers of requirements for service delivery.

Can I be more efficient in some areas? The answer is yes. But I need management data to tell me where I can make those efficiencies. Those efficiencies that I can make will never bring me down to the average provincial level of expenditure for health care. I have over 1,200 of my people in what we call the “field force”. They don't see patients. Their job is to be ready to go on missions overseas. So I have some fairly substantial drags on my efficiency.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Aside from the Auditor General's report--and we have to do better--I would add that the leadership of the Canadian Forces and the department did tell Brigadier General Jaeger in the month of October that she is directed to spend whatever money she needs to get it right for soldiers, sailors, airmen, and airwomen. She was very happy to hear that.

It is agreed that we need to do it better, as the Auditor General said, to ensure that we have the performance measurement pieces in place. But clearly, money should not be an issue that prevents our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and airwomen from getting the support they need for what they've done for this nation. That's what she has been told to move ahead and do.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I have a point of clarification, Mr. Chair.

There was one statistic that I did not get, and perhaps I didn't hear it right. Did you say that according to your statistics the suicide rate among soldiers is actually lower than the general population for equivalent age groups?

[BGen Hilary Jaeger]

If you control the statistics for age and sex distribution, people in the general population at highest risk for suicide are males between the ages of 19 and 24. So if you control for that sort of fraction, we are slightly below the average Canadian rate.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Very interesting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

On behalf of everyone on the committee, I want to thank you for your appearance today, Major General Semianiw, and Brigadier General Jaeger.

Ms. Fraser, do you have any closing comments?

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the committee for their interest in this audit. I think it is testimony to the importance of this program and the medical services that are provided to the Canadian Forces. We do hope this audit will help to improve the management of that program and we are pleased with the response from the department, the development of the action plan. We will certainly be monitoring this going forward. I would hope this committee will as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Ms. Fraser.

Major General Semianiw, do you have any closing comments?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Just to reiterate the comments up front. Again, we fully embrace and support the recommendations of the Auditor General, not just with what's been done, but in the future working with her team to continue to move ahead. The action plan we've put in place to start addressing in a real way some of the issues I think is a testament to where we need to go.

As this committee knows, it does come back to dollars and cents. Clearly, we're going to do better. We've got to do better when it comes to performance measurement, when it comes to accounting. We're committed to doing that. At the end of the day, I would say, and I've said this many times, clearly, what we need to do for men and women in uniform is to do the right thing, and that is to provide the best health care they need, both physical and mental, to continue to serve this nation the way they have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Stoffer, you have a brief comment you want to raise.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Yes.

Mr. Chairman, on a lighter note, I thought we'd let everybody know this, that we have a reunion here. When the brigadier general was the lieutenant colonel of the 2 Field Ambulance, she was serving with the second in charge, Andrew, who's our researcher, both under the brigadier general at the time, Rick Hillier. So there you have it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We've gone full circle here.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Well done. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay.

I want to, on behalf of everyone on the committee, thank everyone for their appearance today.

Our next meeting, members, will be Tuesday morning, 11 o'clock, and we'll be dealing with the Canadian Border Service Agency.

The meeting is adjourned.