Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bonaventure.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
If the department could provide that, I think it would be tremendously helpful.
Mr. Williams is quite right, and we'll direct that to the department, as opposed to Ms. Cochrane.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
If you want to follow up, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, we can follow up from the committee and write to the department, but I don't think it's proper to ask her. This lady is an individual appearing here as a retired public servant.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, are you proceeding with a letter of some kind?
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Or a suggestion to the committee.
One more question, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Getting back to this, we were going to quantify that first issue of whether money was lost or gained for taxpayers.
The second question is about the process and whether there was nefarious intent. You stated there was a need for a prestigious location. Also, the tremendous concern of employees at having to move has been cited; they'd been there 15, 20, or 30 years in some cases.
Could you tell us a little more about what those two concerns may have been?
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
My only information, Mr. Chair, was contained in the testimony of Mr. Gladu before this committee, when he described conversations he had had with his minister about concerns the employees might have had.
As far as the prestigious space goes, it is outlined or described in the letter that Monsieur Drouin sent to the Honourable Don Boudria on April 15, 2002. That was the first time, to my knowledge, that the requirement for a prestigious space had been identified by the client.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj and Mr. Hubbard.
Mr. Sweet, for up to eight minutes.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have to say I'm a little uncomfortable with the amount of rationalization after the fact, particularly because we didn't see this in any of the communications and the many e-mails we got about the reasons why. In fact, this committee is meeting today because there is a big question mark about the reasons why this happened.
If Mr. Christopherson might do something in a bipartisan way with me, could he just raise up that process sheet once more?
The other thing we haven't considered is that I can only imagine the hundreds of thousands of dollars it costs taxpayers for Public Works and Government Services to go through to make sure that the tendering process is legitimate. No one can say what is the dollar value of the reduced public trust when you do something like this, when there are multiple tenders and you don't give those other tenders the same consideration you did to Place Victoria, where they changed the game to allow them to resubmit some numbers.
I would like to ask you, Madam Cochrane, how long did you serve in the public service?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
My colleague asked you a question last time about Minister Gagliano intervening in some files. You worked there for a while, and you must have had an idea about how often this may have happened. Were the number of interventions above average or average?
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
In my experience, there were no inappropriate interventions. He required information, as did almost every other minister I served during that time. I had no experience with any interventions that would have been considered inappropriate during my time with Mr. Gagliano.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Were you aware of any other times the minister's office directed you to go into direct negotiations, other than the public tendering process for office space, or anything else?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Polachek, I want to ask you a question as well, based on the chairman's introduction. Is your corporation still part owner at Place Victoria?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
One corporation has 20% ownership and the other one is the corporation responsible for management. Is that correct?
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
We're involved with the management and we have a 20% ownership interest.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Okay.
Madam Cochrane, we had Mario Arès here before the committee. Were you aware of any activity by a minister's office that would suggest—I'm paraphrasing Mr. Arès's e-mail—that interests other than sound management of public funds were served?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Did you have any other concerns about private interests being served in this case?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Ms. Cochrane, I don't want you to take the blame for what's going to be in our report, and that's why I'm going to ask about some of your remarks.