Evidence of meeting #24 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was move.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I think it is. When you're referring to the Auditor General's information to be misleading, I think it's a point of order, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I'm going to ask Mr. Wrzesnewskyj to continue. You have two minutes and fifteen seconds.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
Prior to my being being interrupted by points of order that were not points of order, there were two questions. One was on the veracity of the claim that there was a cost to taxpayers. Obviously we're having difficulty in establishing whether it's correct or not. The second was on the process that took place. You said you were there for a limited period of time. At any point in time, were there unusual processes or unusual discussions that took place around this particular file?
As an Individual
I believe, as Mr. Gagliano told you, that we had meetings with the real property people from the public works department. I don't particularly remember this file, because it was five or six or seven years ago, but fundamentally we always asked the same questions. Normally the intent of these meetings with real property was to ascertain that the client was willing to.... The clients were obviously the officers of the department, but they were also the minister's office; since we were working in a minister's office, our priority was to make sure that the minister client of the department--that being the public works department--was aware of the orientation given by his officers of his department.
Fundamentally we limited ourselves to that. We didn't get involved with the figures. We would probably ask other questions, such as whether it would be profitable for the government, why we were moving, why you weren't renewing the lease, and so on and so forth, but these were political reasons so that we could brief the minister on what was going on--particularly, as Mr. Gagliano mentioned in his testimony, for the Province of Quebec, because Mr. Gagliano was minister responsible for the organization of the political party in Quebec. Fundamentally that's where our role got involved. That's how we got involved in asking questions.
The rest of it was follow-up. If you look at all the correspondence that was given to me, the follow-ups were done, because at one point Mr. Arès, who wrote a lot of memoranda on the subject, said yes, the department of economic development is aware of what we're doing and they're willing to go ahead with the move. Apart from that, I don't see how we could have gotten involved in this kind of situation, except to ask political questions.
These meetings were always pre-approved, regardless of what other people said in their testimony. These meetings were always approved by the associate deputy minister, Mr. Mike Nurse, is deceased since these events. When Mr. Nurse became associate deputy minister, his replacement was Mrs. Beal, and all these things were always cleared with Mrs. Beal. We never dealt with subordinates below Mrs. Beal unless we were told to, and that was very seldom. That's fundamentally our involvement there, and there's nothing else to it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Bard. Merci.
Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
Monsieur Laforest.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, Mr. Bard.
What exactly were your duties when you worked for Minister Gagliano?
As an Individual
I started working for Mr. Gagliano as a senior policy advisor; at around the end of 1999 or the beginning of 2000, when the minister's chief of staff applied for a job with the public service, I became Mr. Gagliano's chief of staff. I served as chief of staff for approximately two years and three to four months.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
In December 2001, the minister's office requested information on all existing leases between the Government of Canada and various companies located throughout the National Capital Region and Montreal.
Were you aware of this request for information?
As an Individual
Yes, as I stated, these subjects were previously discussed with the then deputy minister and the assistant deputy minister. As Mr. Gagliano, who was the minister responsible for the region of Quebec at the time told you,the main objective was political because we had to understand what was going on. When the House was in session, Mr. Gagliano paid monthly visits, alongside other Quebec ministers, to inform the public or interest groups such as chambers of commerce or the MRC. That was essentially the purpose of the process. From time to time, if announcements were to be made, we could check with the department's Communications branch to see if any announcements should or could be made. It was a political approach, in the most literal sense of the word.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Were there any officials or people working in the department, such as the deputy minister, who complained that there was something amiss with regard to the management of the leases? You are telling me that the review of all the different leases in the region was for political reasons. But, were problems identified also?
As an Individual
There was never any review, to my knowledge at least, on any particular lease. We made a request for information, and based on the information we received, we were able to determine which region was affected, and if there would be an impact on members or the minister responsible. On many occasions, members would speak to the minister or call the office to ask a question pertaining to passport offices. When the time came to either renew the leases or not, to change their locations, it could sometimes cause a political stir.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Bard, as our time is rather limited, I will ask my next question. During the time that you served as chief of staff, did you attended meetings where decisions were made regarding Place Victoria?
As an Individual
Meetings where decisions were made, no. We did not attend meetings where—
As an Individual
We attended meetings with people from the real estate branch, which in the beginning came Mr. Nurse and then Ms. Beal. As I said earlier, we were not part of the decision-making process. We asked questions to obtain information with a view of doing follow-ups, and to determine whether or not the minister was in favour of a move. You will recall that when we started working on this file, Mr. Drouin was not the minister responsible for Economic Development Canada.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
When you left the office, did you pass on this information to your successor? There was a new minister, and a new chief of staff. Did you provide information on this particular file to new staff members?
As an Individual
No, nor did we provide information on any other file because if I recall correctly, there was no meeting scheduled with my successor when we left.
Bloc
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Mr. Bard, I'm looking at this organizational chart. You spoke to Ms. Beal, who works in the head office in Ottawa. Is this correct?
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Were you in contact with the Montreal office of the Department of Public Works and the Director General? Did you ever meet the regional director general?
As an Individual
Based on my recollection, I perhaps met with the regional director once or twice, and always in the presence of Mr. Nurse or Ms. Beal. As I said earlier, there is a hierarchy, and we respected it. We consistently, and without exception acted through Mr. Nurse, the Assistant Deputy Minister, or Ms. Beal in order to obtain the information in question. Never directly—
As an Individual
I simply want to add that several of Mr. Arès's e-mails can be found in the internal correspondence. These e-mails seem to suggest that either I, or the minister's office gave him instructions. To my recollection, I do not know Mr. Arès and I have never met him. Our meetings were always held in our offices in Hull, in the presence of Ms. Beal, who was accompanied by assistants whom we did not always know. We did not give any instructions to the Montreal office, nor to any other office. We always acted through the head office, which was run by Mr. Nurse or Ms. Beal.