Yes, I understand.
Evidence of meeting #24 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was move.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #24 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was move.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Now, this gets into another area that becomes really difficult in this whole process, and it's Mr. Arès. Mr. Arès, at the time, had written documentation. We're missing that in a lot of things. It's one person's word against other people's word. But we've got e-mails from Mr. Arès, going over in detail how this intervention violated the rules in place—in detail—and saying this had been taken to the corporate level. His hands are washed clean of it. And if I understand his e-mails, he said the deputy minister of economic development did not agree with this decision.
So we've got somebody from the Department of Public Works—another good public servant—who's writing at the time.... I know he had a conversion later on, but at that time he was very upset, so upset that he wrote e-mails, and I imagine his supervisors weren't happy about it. But he was very critical of that decision. He was saying that his communications with Mr. Gladu indicated they were not in favour of this move.
Do you not agree that when you put the evidence of Mr. Gladu together with Mr. Arès', it puts a real cloud over your testimony, sir?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Not all, Mr. Chairman. At the outset, I said so and I will repeat it for the fourth or fifth time: I also agreed with the move. It was after what Deputy Minister Gladu had to say that I asked for a written verification, in a transparent manner, for the well-being of Economic Development Canada and its employees. I fully agreed with the move; I was even prepared to participate and help the employees. But when I was told about the cost and the inconvenience for the employees, taking all this into consideration, I asked for a simple verification.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I understand that answer, sir. The question speaks for itself.
I have another question for you. There's been a whole lot of talk about the millions of dollars it would cost to move people from Place Victoria to Bonaventure. There would be relocation costs and so on. Here we have a building, Bonaventure, that has room for 300 public servants, and that got backfilled somewhere. I presume it was with public servants.
As the minister in charge of this decision, before you agree to something like that, you'd want to make sure we didn't have a whole bunch of unproductive rent in that Bonaventure place.
Do you recall who the tenants were who moved into that facility, what departments they came from?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, you will appreciate that I don't have an answer to that. I was the minister of State responsible for the Economic Development Agency of Canada and I did not know all the details of—
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
So you don't have any actual information on who they were, but you must have believed there were some tenants to be moved in.
Maybe I can ask Mr. Boudria this question. Is it not a safe assumption that there would be relocation costs to move public servants from one office, presumably in the Montreal area, to Bonaventure? There was going to be a cost to move them from Place Victoria to Bonaventure. You're not moving there, and you have to move some people from some other departments into Bonaventure. There must be a cost involved in making that move.
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't know where the people who were moved there came from, but generally moving does cost money. But I wasn't the minister at the time; I was gone. When the lease finished, as a matter of fact, I hadn't been a minister for a year.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Would you have had any knowledge about whether this decision to move tenants from one department into the Bonaventure facility left unproductive rent somewhere else?
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I would have had no knowledge of transactions that took place in a city a hundred miles from where I lived one year after I had ceased to have responsibility.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
But wouldn't you assume that the minister and the deputy minister at the time, in making that sort of decision, would have made that analysis and looked into those matters?
If you had been the minister, you would have no doubt made sure that those matters were addressed, in the interest of protecting taxpayers' dollars, and so on.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Mr. Chair, when we're asking people for information from Public Works and trying to find the total cost of matters, and so on, I think we should find out what the cost of relocating the other officials into the Bonaventure facility was, and whether any unproductive rents resulted from that change. That's just as relevant to taxpayers' dollars--it works on both sides of the fence.
In conclusion, Mr. Drouin, I have a lot of difficulty with what's been said before the committee. I have two public servants, one in writing.... Mr. Arès, at the time, said the deputy minister did not want to move. We had that official before our committee under oath, and he made it clear he did not agree with that decision. In fact, my interpretation is that he was so angry that he actually went and talked to you and told you it was a mistake.
Now what you're saying flies totally in the face of not only what Mr. Gladu has said; it flies in the face of documents at the time that were written by Mr. Arès. I think it almost closes the door on this issue, quite honestly. It's not very convincing testimony. That's my conclusion. You can respond to it, but I think it's pretty open and shut.
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, may I answer? I'm not coming here to convince you, I'm here to tell you the truth about what I experienced at the time when I was Minister of State responsible for the Economic Development Agency of Canada.
It was clear to me that we had to move. However, the Deputy Minister, Ms. Cochrane, told us that we had made a request in writing, that she'd verified it, and that everything had been done according to the rules as far as she was concerned. For my part, I made a written request once, without any other intervention except the discussion I had with Mr. Boudria to find out whether a verification had been made. He told me to put my request in writing. That's what I did. That's the only time I intervened and I asked whether it was possible, because I didn't want to contravene regulations or government rules. It was clear in my mind and it was never my intention to do anything other than that, while respecting the employees and with a budget available to help Quebeckers who are creating jobs here in Canada.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Before we go to Mr. Christopherson, I have one question for Mr. Drouin, if I may. As Mr. Fitzpatrick has indicated, there is a conflict between what Mr. Gladu has told the committee and what you're telling the committee.
I'll just quote a paragraph from Mr. Gladu's testimony on March 21 last year:
After being made aware of Mr. Drouin's letter, I met him at a regular meeting. I told him that, in my opinion, it was a mistake to have sent that letter, because this was an administrative matter and he simply should not have got involved.
I sense your evidence is that you did get involved because of Mr. Gladu coming to you with the concerns of the employees. After this came to light and you realized this, did you ever get on the phone and call Mr. Gladu and ask him, “What's going on here? Do you recall speaking to me about the concerns of the employees, concerns about the morale, concerns about lost productivity?”
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, what you just said seems to me to be very important. It was a mistake to make such a request at the administrative level. I would have really liked to have Mr. Gladu write to the deputy minister, or at least the deputy minister at Public Works Canada at the time himself rather than having me do it with Mr. Boudria. I would have liked to have Mr. Gladu write to the deputy minister and explain the concerns that he had discussed with me when we had a meeting between me, my chief of staff and him, and where he told us that it was very unmotivating for the employees, that there were significant costs involved in moving and that we were in difficulty—perhaps not in difficulty—because we had financial needs to help business. This is true, that was my mistake. I mentioned it at the outset. I wanted to do the right thing, but the deputy minister should have been the one to write the letter, because this was taking place at the administrative level. However, I did it in a transparent manner, by writing a letter because I had nothing to hide and I wanted this to be done in accordance with the rules. I thank you for having pointed that out.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I don't think I really got an answer to my question. I'll ask it again, if I may. My question was that after this dispute, there was obviously a discrepancy. Did you ever get on the phone, after this became available--let's say in the last three months or the last six months--and call Mr. Gladu and ask him why he said this, which really doesn't totally jive with what you're saying?
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
No, I did not contact him. I'm sorry I didn't understand your question properly. I didn't discuss this with Mr. Gladu.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
That was my communication, because there is a discrepancy. I would have thought somebody would have gotten on the phone and said “Look, what the hell is going on here? What are you saying?”
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
I should like to mention something, please Mr. Chairman. I only learned about it the night before last.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
In fairness to the witnesses, are those appearing before the committee kept up to date on a weekly basis of what evidence comes to this committee? In fairness to the witnesses, to say he should have known something that was said here two months ago, how would he find that out?
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
To answer that, Mr. Hubbard, the witnesses would be provided with a copy of the transcript of evidence in the packages.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Mr. Gladu was here before he was here the first time. Mr. Gladu's testimony was even before he was here the first time.