Public Accounts Committee on April 15th, 2008

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Was the Office of the Auditor General consulted before the mandate was approved?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

There was no formal check with the Office of the Auditor General, but the terms of reference were circulated after they were approved.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I saw the Auditor General shaking her head.

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, I wanted to say that we were not consulted before approval was given, but we did receive a copy afterward.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Once the mandate had been approved, you saw it, but you were not consulted beforehand.

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Could you please tell us who is co-chairing this committee?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Yes. The co-chairs are Dan Danagher, a director general with the Treasury Board Secretariat, and Ms. Mignault from the Department of Foreign Affairs.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

All right.

I am trying to understand the timing of what you are doing, the review of the foreign service directives that is under way and will be ending soon, because the new directives are to take effect on June 1, 2008, a month and a half from now, in relation to what the Department of Foreign Affairs is doing with its two-year project to adopt the PeopleSoft 8.9 personnel management software. How do those two things fit together?

I also have another question, this time for Mr. Edwards, in case I should run out of time.

Mr. Edwards, you mentioned that last year you set up a group that is looking at improving your IT capacity—over two years, because it's scheduled to finish next summer—and you've chosen PeopleSoft 8.9. I'd like to know how you arrived at that--whether it's commonly shared across all agencies or was by a competitive process.

That's one question.

Lastly, I have a question for the Treasury Board about an issue that the Auditor General may not have raised, but that concerns public servants who have to use a United Nations flight to travel abroad. I know of a case where an employee unfortunately died in the crash of a United Nations flight. The United Nations does not provide life insurance for our employees and is refusing to do so.

I would like to know who is looking at this issue, because it is a very important issue that must be dealt with, and I would like to know whether or not it has been dealt with. I do not believe it has. When our employees use United Nations flights abroad, they have no life insurance in case of a crash or accident. I hope this situation will be corrected.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Let us have very brief answers, please.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

First of all, you asked how the cyclical review of the foreign service directives fits in with the other work the department is doing. Certainly, a number of activities are under way. The cyclical review began in October and will be completed in June 2008. It is focusing on the most pressing issues that need to be looked at in discussions between the employer and its union partners.

The purpose of the interdepartmental committee's work is to enable us to create benchmark data on an ongoing basis—but you have to start somewhere—so that we have a good idea of what our future needs will be, as well as demographic information about the people working abroad. In this way, we can continuously adapt the rules that apply to these people and support them better in future.

So the two activities do fit together. Perhaps one has a longer-term vision, while the other is slightly more immediate, because the cyclical review is under way right now, but because it is cyclical, there will be future reviews. Clearly, the way in which we compile the data we need and for which the Auditor General found there was a need will enable us to respond to pressures abroad in an even more sophisticated manner.

I am not aware of the specific case you mentioned in relation to the United Nations. I will have to do some research. I cannot give you an answer right now.

[Leonard Edwards]

With respect to PeopleSoft 8.9, it's the new common standard across government. When I was in Agriculture, we were implementing it there, and it must be implemented there by now. I don't know who else is doing it, but it's the common standard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Edwards.

Mr. Fitzpatrick, you have four minutes.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

We're in a global village today, certainly in the world of business and commerce, and it occurred to me that if we have really top-notch, competent people—let's say, in a place such as Beijing—who are very competent in the language, understand the country, and have a real network of important contacts in that country inside the government and outside the government, their skill set would be very attractive to people who want to do business in a country like China and who have plans for growth in that country.

Is it an ongoing challenge, Mr. Edwards, to keep these kinds of people in the foreign service?

[Leonard Edwards]

Yes, it is, but the frequency of people leaving the foreign service to work for private companies in those sorts of situations has varied over time and usually sometimes has to do with the terms and conditions of service inside the government. For instance, we had a high attrition rate in the mid-1990s, when there was a pay freeze in place, and it's interesting that you mention China, because that's one of the places where we were losing people.

I would say that now that our attrition rate is pretty low, 1.6% for rotational FS. That is quite low.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you.

Something that has occurred too is that Mr. Holland and Mr. Sweet have asked about the clearance process and the local hiring practices and so on, and I always get concerned. It's easy to crank up plans; it's another thing to have plans that actually are alive and are performing and are being executed and so on.

My way of thinking on those sorts of matters is that if I was reviewing what was going on in the personnel files, whether it was hiring somebody on a low level or in a senior position, the first thing I'd look for is something that simplifies the whole process, because the memory isn't that good a thing to rely on in this world. I'd be looking for a checklist that really targets the key areas to make sure that major concerns have been addressed and have been dealt with.

If a person checked personnel files today, would you expect to find something as obvious as a checklist on each of those personnel files?

[Leonard Edwards]

I'm not sure what you mean by a checklist.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

When hiring somebody in the local market for working in the department, you say you have a variety of things you look at. I'd like to think that there's a consistent approach to this, and that on there would be things such as that you checked with local police, you checked with other things, and so on, and with maybe some briefs or attachments to that checklist just to confirm that a quality analysis went into place, and a systematic approach to it.

[Leonard Edwards]

I can assure you that is what the system does. The process starts with a job description and then, through a competitive process that's posted in public, with interviews and so on, ensures that the individuals who are looked at meet that profile; so there's a check. Then they're interviewed and you choose the best person; there's a check. Then you do the reference check. There should be also a check, and the reference should be attached to the file, and so on. If the data system is working well, which it obviously hasn't been, all of that material should be present.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fitzpatrick.

Thank you, Mr. Edwards.

Monsieur Lussier, quatre minutes.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Edwards, in 2003, your department went through the difficult process of being split into two entities: the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of International Trade. These two departments merged again in 2006. You did not go through these events, but does your strategic human resources management plan allow for the possibility that the department could be divided in the near future? Are you prepared for the possibility that the department could be split again? Do you have a strategic plan B?

[Leonard Edwards]

No. I believe that the department went through a turbulent time when it was divided in two, as you mentioned. The employees of the department do not want to go through that again. Our plan is based on the assumption that the department will remain as it is now.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Laurendeau, does the amount you mentioned—the $103 million every year for payments—include locally engaged staff?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

No. The $103 million represents only payments under the foreign service directives. Those payments apply to the 1,570 people who leave Canada and are deployed overseas. It does not include their salaries.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Do you have an idea of the annual cost of locally engaged staff?